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Crusader 350 w/ Velvet Transmission: Locked up after brief shutdown

S

Silver(ton)Surfer

New member
Hi everybody,

I left our slip yesterday to get gas (10-minute drive). Both engines fired right up and ran as smoothly and quietly as always.
When I tried to start the engines after getting gas, the starboard engine again fired right up. The port engine, however, didn't even turn over.

At first I thought the starter had died, as I sensed a burnt smell and it drew so many amps that the voltage collapsed to below 8 volts.
After I replaced the starter today, I however still have the same issue.

We have:
- 1986 Crusader 350, carbureted
- 1986 Velvet drive
What I already tried:
- Replaced starter
- Removed all spark plugs to eliminate hydrolock
- Removed v-belts to water pump and alternator to eliminate seized accessory
- Verified electrical system

Engine and transmission oil look clean and have recently been replaced.
I can also turn the prop shaft by hand.
When I try to start the engine, the starter makes a loud, powerful "clunk" as it engages. I see the crankshaft turn a tiny bit, but that's it.

If there was some type of internal failure I would have expect it to happen while the engine was running and that there would have likely been some noises first.

Any ideas? Frankly, I'm lost as this doesn't make any sense.

Oliver
 
When I try to start the engine, the starter makes a loud, powerful "clunk" as it engages. I see the crankshaft turn a tiny bit, but that's it.

If there was some type of internal failure I would have expect it to happen while the engine was running and that there would have likely been some noises first.
Click to expand...

Check your motor oil level and color
 
AllDodge said:
Check your motor oil level and color
Click to expand...
Clean, pretty clear, no funny smell.
I would also expect that if this was somehow wear / lubrication related we would have heard some unhealthy noises or seen rising temperatures first.

Neither was however the case. Everything seemed normal, we shut the engine down to get gas, tried to start if again and it was seized.
 
While it could be the motor or transmission which could lock the motor. The prop shaft turns easy so that leaves the motor.

Motor oil is clean "and note IT IS NOT high" on dipstick

Only thing left is the motor
 
Silver(ton)Surfer said:
...
as I sensed a burnt smell and it drew so many amps that the voltage collapsed to below 8 volts.
....
Click to expand...
Is the amperage draw an assumption or was it measured?
Silver(ton)Surfer said:
...
What I already tried:

- Removed all spark plugs to eliminate hydrolock
...
Click to expand...
Did you attempt to rotate the engine with the plugs removed?
Silver(ton)Surfer said:
...
I can also turn the prop shaft by hand.
...
Click to expand...
As long as the velvet drive goes into Neutral, the prop shaft rotation is completely independent of the engine's situation.

Have you tried swapping starting batteries between the engines ?

I would also be inclined to make some voltage drop measurements across the battery cables...
 
makomark said:
Is the amperage draw an assumption or was it measured?

Did you attempt to rotate the engine with the plugs removed?

As long as the velvet drive goes into Neutral, the prop shaft rotation is completely independent of the engine's situation.

Have you tried swapping starting batteries between the engines ?

I would also be inclined to make some voltage drop measurements across the battery cables...
Click to expand...
I (kind of) measured the amperage draw: I have a DC clamp meter which goes to 400 A. It maxed out.

Also, when I measured the voltage drop in the positive and ground wire, which were three measurements of maybe 2 -3 seconds each, the terminal on the starter became so hot that I could barely touch it. The 2 AWG wires (upgraded from the original 6 AWG) also became very warm.
I also have the ability to connect our two 360 Ah Lithium batteries in parallel to the starter battery. The amperage draw was so massive that the interior lights dimmed!

- The starter battery is a big, almost new, AGM Battery, Group 49, 95ah, 900CCA
- We installed a new starter just yesterday
- All spark plugs are out
- Accessory belts are removed

I also measured voltages:
- Battery, initial: 13.08V
- Battery, during cranking: 8.95V
- Starter, initial: As battery
- Starter, during cranking: Close to 0V (pretty much a short)
- Voltage drop during cranking in positive wire: 2.4V
- Voltage drop during cranking in positive wire: 6.5V

Considering that a locked starter has a resistance of close to 0 Ohms, I think these numbers are what I would expect.

What are your thoughts?
 
not sure what voltage drops you measured.

either way it doesn't appear to be promising for that engine.

if the plugs are out, I'd see if the engine allow some rotation...the flywheel cover timing port is probably the best...

the last question, for now, is have you inspected the gear oil - level and appearance?
 
Motor has to come out because there is a way to disconnect the tranny from the motor in the boat to test, but I don't know of anyone which would want to try it
 
I’m sure of your setup, but if it is like my 7.4s and in-line gears, I know I can pull the velvet drives out without pulling the engines on my boat. Disconnect shaft couplers and slide shaft towards the stern to see what kind of clearance you would have. If there is room, put a bottle jack under each exhaust manifold on the stringer and then can relieve the rear engine (actually gear) mounts. The lower studs for the gear are pretty long, but if you can separate the gear from the engine you can then see if the engine or the gear is locked up, just need enough room to disengage the input shaft.

With the plugs out, did you try to get a socket on the crank pulley bolt and see if it would move, or better yet a full rotation? Hate to say it, but sounds like you have a big project on the horizon
 
I had checked the transmission fluid level just Friday: Clean and right at the max level.
The crankshaft pulley has only three smaller screws, I would need an adapter to move it with a breaker bar. I also have a borescope, just not here.

The marina here has good technicians, I'll ask them in the morning to have a look at our engine as well. I don't feel optimistic, though, that he will find something we didn't as I'm an electrician and a car guy, our slip neighbor has been a car mechanic for +40 years. We spent hours brainstorming and testing but came up empty handed.

To make things worse, we were planning to leave for a ferry trip from Grand Haven, MI to Lake St. Clair, MI, where we already paid for a slip for the season.
The stop at the fuel dock was to top off the tanks for our planned departure at 6 am on Saturday. :mad:

My only hope is that, since none of this make any sense, we might have overlooked something. Outside of hydrolock, which we eliminated by removing the spark plugs, I was not able to find one single case online, where the engine ran smooth until shutdown and then just seized when it was started again shortly after.
 
Check your grounds and other connectors. Have you tried jumping the starter at the solinoid? I went through this last summer and it turned out that I had a bad wire feeding the starter switch. I spent almost a month trouble shooting this and then tried jumping the starter and she fired right up. Sometimes it's just the little things, go figure.
 
The marina's technician was here today, we again double checked all electrical connection and also yanked with a 2' crowbar at the crankshaft with all we had - nothing. Not even the tiniest bit of movement in either direction.

Besides of a seized piston, any internal damage, like a dropped valve, would allow at least for some movement.

He thinks that a screw might have come loose and is not blocking the flywheel. It is now in the marina's hands, they will continue to investigate later this week.
 
Glad your marina guy didn't break the crank shaft bolt

Don't know how many times someone has said, put a socket on the crank shaft bolt and see if you can move the motor, then they have yet another problem when it snaps off.

Hope they can find and fix the issue at least cost
 
AllDodge said:
Glad your marina guy didn't break the crank shaft bolt

Don't know how many times someone has said, put a socket on the crank shaft bolt and see if you can move the motor, then they have yet another problem when it snaps off.

Hope they can find and fix the issue at least cost
Click to expand...
Lol, well, he took a wrench to it but didn't break it off.
I bought yesterday Grade 8 3/8" bolts and a 26" crowbar and used those to try the rotate the engine: Nothing (s. image).
I also took the new starter back out but didn't find anything suspicious.

Current situation:
- Accessories removed.
- All spark plugs out.
- Starter removed.
- The crankshaft still doesn't budge, not even with a 26" crowbar.

I also forgot to mention that after we arrived at the fuel dock, I had to fire up the engines again to turn the boat around.
This means I started both engine, drove for less than 10 minutes at idle, was at the dock for maybe 20 minutes, ran the engines again for maybe 5 minutes, spent another 30 minutes at the dock, when I then tried to start them again, the port engine was seized.

I spoke today with another experienced car mechanic, who also said that V8s don't just seize, particularly not under these conditions.
This makes absolutely zero sense!

The shop now wants to borescope the flywheel, to see whether something came loose and is now wedged in there, then borescope the cylinders and finally remove the valve covers. If all of this looks good, they'll pull the transmission, what will be a major PITA.


Crankshaft.jpg
 
Damper springs have been known to fall out and they usually make a mess...but I've never heard of one coming out at idle...given 40 years, anything is possible...
 
makomark said:
Damper springs have been known to fall out and they usually make a mess...but I've never heard of one coming out at idle...given 40 years, anything is possible...
Click to expand...

Since we already eliminated all of the more typical failure modes, only unlikely stuff, that requires some mental gymnastics, remains.
At this point, I'll happily take anything that doesn't require the removal of the engine as the boat would have to be hauled out and the entire main salon's floor, including some permanently installed furniture, would have to be removed.
 
I hope the bore scoping shows something, but with it being unable to turn by the crowbar in either direction, I'm thinking seized bearing. If a rod broke or crank broke it should still move some if not one direction but would the other even a small amount.

Not as bad as a Silverton but did similar to a 37ft Maxum with 454's, that was a bear
 
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