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1991 Johnson 60 HP Touble shoot, will not idle

E

eneusiis

Regular Contributor
My neighbor purchased a 1991 Johnson 60 HP VRO 2 Stroke. It is not running 100%. In short, we cannot get it to idle, but it will run at WOT endlessly without issue and smooth.

Here are the symptoms:

  • Will start, easily with a freshly pumped bulb and some gas on the neutral throttle
  • The second you drop it down to neutral in gear it dies
  • If you are fast enough to get it into gear and gas on, it runs at WOT.
  • One Solid Alarm sounds constant, which indicates fuel blockage (The culprit)....
    • The fuel bulb does loose pressure and you have to hand pump
    • You can see the fuel in the internal fuel filter DROP, versus being sucked into the VRO Fuel Pump... (I think the VRO Fuel Pump needs a rebuild).

The bizarre symptom..........
  • Running in a tank, if you drop it into neutral, it dies....BUT.....if you run it on muff's it idles perfectly fine in neutral...:eek:. If you put it in the lake it behaves like it does in the tank..... WTH! I don't get this and this portion makes me a bit concerned as I have always found the tank to be better. Any advice?

History:
  • Good compression in all 3 cylinders
  • Previous owner (another close friend and good Army/Home mechanic) cleaned the carbs before selling to my friend. However that was on the original fuel line and bulb, which has been replaced, but I am afraid possibly some crap got into them but.....kind of doubt it with the inline fuel filter.....
  • New impeller with solid water at the tell tale and no overheating.
  • I did play with the carb adjustments but found no change in performance, I started with the middle carb, then adjusted the other two.
  • We also, flipped the electronic fuel primer system to manual and the same symptoms exhibited.

Here is a link to the motor:

https://www.boats.net/catalog/johnson/outboard-by-year/1991/tj60tleib

1. I feel the VRO Fuel pump needs a rebuild. I see on boat.net there is a kit but not one that I can purchase or a part number, does anyone know of one? 1991 Johnson TJ60TLEIB 60 HP VRO.
2. Why does it idle on muffs and not a tank or lake?
3. Does anyone have a pdf service manual to this motor, I would like to go through the carbs again, and make sure the fuel/air mixture screw is set properly?

I welcome all opinions, help and questions, please. Thank you in advance, I am more of a Honda and I/O guy, so this is my first venture with a 20+ year old VRO 2 stroke platform.

Thanks,

Eric
 
What is good compression? Have you checked for spark on all 3 cylinders? Either a drop test or an air gap test, spark must jump a 7/16" gap.
 
Are you sure the solid alarm horn means that there is a fuel blockage ??-----Does the tell tale hose come off the side of the block or the top ?----Your answers to questions seem to indicate that this motor should run like a top but it is not.----It idles / runs on muffs because there is no back pressure.----It is easy for cylinders to scavenge.-----Some how I doubt your compression numbers of 150 PSI.-----Also check and see if perhaps a cylinder sleeve rotated in the block.----A head gasket is cheap and inspection of cylinder sleeves might be worthwhile.
 
racerone said:
Are you sure the solid alarm horn means that there is a fuel blockage ??-----Does the tell tale hose come off the side of the block or the top ?----Your answers to questions seem to indicate that this motor should run like a top but it is not.----It idles / runs on muffs because there is no back pressure.----It is easy for cylinders to scavenge.-----Some how I doubt your compression numbers of 150 PSI.-----Also check and see if perhaps a cylinder sleeve rotated in the block.----A head gasket is cheap and inspection of cylinder sleeves might be worthwhile.
Click to expand...

Race, just ran the compression on a cold block, full throttle, kill switch pulled, each cylinder came in at 130 psi, the 150 above was a typo. Even at matching cold 130 psi, that engine is capable of running fine. The fuel not filling the inline filter to me points at fuel pump failure aka a blockage. Thoughts?
 
racerone said:
Are you sure the solid alarm horn means that there is a fuel blockage ??-----Does the tell tale hose come off the side of the block or the top ?----Your answers to questions seem to indicate that this motor should run like a top but it is not.----It idles / runs on muffs because there is no back pressure.----It is easy for cylinders to scavenge.-----Some how I doubt your compression numbers of 150 PSI.-----Also check and see if perhaps a cylinder sleeve rotated in the block.----A head gasket is cheap and inspection of cylinder sleeves might be worthwhile.
Click to expand...

race, the tell tale comes off the side of the block down towards the bottom.
 
Start it on the hose/muff ..slowly open the throttles plate by hand ,,if it sounds garbly and hesitates and dies most likely exhaust side of pistons scuffed. This will result cause VRO to act goofy as crankcase pressure is affected. 1991 thru 1994 was bad about this as bridgeport block.
 
faztbullet said:
Start it on the hose/muff ..slowly open the throttles plate by hand ,,if it sounds garbly and hesitates and dies most likely exhaust side of pistons scuffed. This will result cause VRO to act goofy as crankcase pressure is affected. 1991 thru 1994 was bad about this as bridgeport block.
Click to expand...

faztbullet, would concerting the VRO to a regular fuel pump and mix the oil and gas resolve that issue?

when we ran it, it was pretty smooth on acceleration. It is coming back down to idle that is the issue.

I may have to pull the carbs off to verify the work done. Do you know the factory set of turns out on the mixture screw?
 
There was a service bulletin that came out in 1994 ( yes 1994 ) to relocate the tell tale hose to the top of the block.----So has this motor not been to a qualified shop in all these years ?----The latest water pump kit comes with parts and instruction to do that modification along with thermostat change.---Some will argue.----I would pull cylinder head for inspection of cylinders and liners !
 
racerone said:
There was a service bulletin that came out in 1994 ( yes 1994 ) to relocate the tell tale hose to the top of the block.----So has this motor not been to a qualified shop in all these years ?----The latest water pump kit comes with parts and instruction to do that modification along with thermostat change.---Some will argue.----I would pull cylinder head for inspection of cylinders and liners !
Click to expand...


Race, to my knowledge no it has not. It sat unused for the past two years. Is this the bulletin you are referring too?

http://continuouswave.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=265
 
racerone said:
There was a service bulletin that came out in 1994 ( yes 1994 ) to relocate the tell tale hose to the top of the block.----So has this motor not been to a qualified shop in all these years ?----The latest water pump kit comes with parts and instruction to do that modification along with thermostat change.---Some will argue.----I would pull cylinder head for inspection of cylinders and liners !
Click to expand...


Race,

is there other parts besides a head gasket that would need to be replaced with this bulletin after inspection?

Was the fuel issue and fuel blockage alarm a sign of this bulletin? Just trying to make it all work in my brain.

thanks

Eric
 
Correct.----Cleaning the carburetors 3 or 4 times likely won't fix what ails this motor----The fuel restriction warning was not installed on this 60 HP motor !----That was a feature on V-6 motors !!----Or is it the NO OIL warning that you heard ??----Best to get this motor sorted out before launching the boat again.
 
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racerone said:
Correct.----Cleaning the carburetors 3 or 4 times likely won't fix what ails this motor----The fuel restriction warning was not installed on this 60 HP motor !----That was a feature on V-6 motors !!----Or is it the NO OIL warning that you heard ??----Best to get this motor sorted out before launching the boat again.

Race:

here is a video of the alarm, the continuous sound and ability to run on the lake a WOT has us pointed to the fuel blockage description on the plate at the end of the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6_xjTh-E8w&feature=share

Here is a video of start up and die when the throttle returns to neutral

https://youtu.be/VN_w8vJnAQQ

Does this make you more or less confident in the bulletin?
Click to expand...
 
I believe the warning buzzer should only sound momentarily when you turn the key on !---On the parts / diagrams list for your motor can you find the fuel restriction sensor ??----Can you find this sensor on a V-6 motor ???----In your owners manual does it point out the fuel flow restriction warning on this 60 hp motor ?----What do you mean with the last line in the above post ?----Good luck with your trouble shooting.
 
racerone said:
I believe the warning buzzer should only sound momentarily when you turn the key on !---On the parts / diagrams list for your motor can you find the fuel restriction sensor ??----Can you find this sensor on a V-6 motor ???----In your owners manual does it point out the fuel flow restriction warning on this 60 hp motor ?----What do you mean with the last line in the above post ?----Good luck with your trouble shooting.
Click to expand...

I will have a look tomorrow when I have my computer running. My last comment was just asking if my videos helped at all. That’s all. Sorry if it came across dickish, it wasn’t meant to be. Thanks for your help!
 
racerone said:
I am not working on my first motor.---Good luck with yours.
Click to expand...
Racerone, do you know if the kit 0432955 also includes the Thermostat? I don't see it, just the spring, but figured while I was in there, my neighbor might as well replace it. I looked on here and boats.net, and did not see it, but found a few other threads that you commented on and are familiar with this procedure, so thought I would ask for confirmation. Thanks.
 
faztbullet, would concerting the VRO to a regular fuel pump and mix the oil and gas resolve that issue?
Click to expand...
Sorry but no.....
Do you know the factory set of turns out on the mixture screw?
Click to expand...
2-3/4 turns out from light seat...Make sure your sync and link is correct as roller sleeve missing on pickup
 
Rwbutler said:
It would be the one with the caburators in it.
Click to expand...

I assume you are referring to this section correct?

Carb Linkage.JPG
 
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faztbullet said:
Sorry but no.....

2-3/4 turns out from light seat...Make sure your sync and link is correct as roller sleeve missing on pickup
Click to expand...


Faztbullet, I didn't see this before are you saying that the roller sleeve is actually missing on this engine? There is a black plastic covering on the metal post, but nothing more than that. Please let me know, as that would be very important I would imagine!

View attachment 24969

This is what is there today as you can see in the video, so I don't think it is missing.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-OMC-Jo...131940&hash=item3b2c05793c:g:NH4AAOSwX9Jdg-Cf.
 
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What are your low speed screws set at? Your roller sleeve is fine and your throttle linkage is fine. You do not have a fuel restriction alarm on that motor. You need to get a factory manual for your motor and do the proper tests.
 
faztbullet said:
From zooming in on pic it looks like the clear outter sleeve is missing off roller...
Click to expand...


Thanks Fazt, you are correct, it is missing and have ordered a new one. I would assume that might be causing some issues with the smoothness of increasing RPM's, he is having.
 
Update:

1. We made the tell tale conversion per the service bulletin, installed the entire new water pump, drilled and tapped the water inlet.
2. Replaced the missing roller on the middle carb
3. The carb linkage looks to be correct on the engine, It can't be flipped the other way and is one piece.

Went to start it and we have lost ALL spark in all three cylinders, like the kill switch was disengaged. We had moved some wiring harness connections and found a broken ground, we fixed that but still nothing.

So....its off to a certified marine mechanic today as we tested the rectifier and the kill switch and both pass an OHM test. Thanks for your help guys.
 
faztbullet said:
From zooming in on pic it looks like the clear outter sleeve is missing off roller...



51pFBYobWrL._AC_SL1500_.jpg
Click to expand...



Fatz, sure enough I got the new part in the mail and it was missing the outer sleeve, I put it on. Was this common for those two pieces to separate? Outside of throttle response was there any other symptoms associated to this part being messed up?
 
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