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2003 BF130 Hard start & won't idle???

C

Craig B

New member
Hi,

First post here. Sorry about the length.

I have a 2003 BF130 with 540hrs on it. I have had it for about 2 years and put 240hrs on it with no major problems. The only issues I have had were water in the gearbox & valve clearances due to the previous owner not following the service schedule & replacing the waterpump & checking valves.

Last sunday we were out fishing and after a few hrs the motor sputtered then stalled. It turns over & will kick but not start. If I held the trottle up about 1/3 it would start and run rough but stall as soon as I let off the throttle. I replaced the plugs out on the water but it did not change anything. I had no buzzer warning (buzzer is working).

The motor was serviced at 500hrs, plugs, oil & filters. HP fuel filter & valves done at 400hrs by local Honda tech at which time he stress tested it to 5000rpm with no issues. Fuel is fresh and from the same station I filled up from for over 4 years, filter/separator in the boat is clear as are the filters in the motor.

I have had a quick look today and following advise from other posts here I have checked the following.
- warning lights & buzzer when key turned on. All ok.
- Oil level - ok
- In 'service mode' there are no errors. Mil light stays on.
- Checked all connectors for corrosion in the ECU box.
- Resistance on primary side of both coils was 1.0 to 1.1 ohm. I will have to borrow a meter to get the secondary & pulse coils as mine only goes to 400ohms.
- HP fuel pump runs for 2 sec when key turned on.

I will try to test more during the week but was hoping for some help to maybe narrow down my search. If any one has had this problem or knowledge that can help it would be greatly appriciated.

Cheers
Craig
 
It sounds like you checked a lot of things.

First you should do the basics....check compression and spark. It would be great if you could check the high pressure fuel pressure.

Once that is confirmed, then there are a few additional things to check. Before you pull the spark plugs, try to start it up and run it as best you can on a hose for a little . Then pull the plugs and see what they look like. Check for water droplets or any differences in what the plugs look like.

Check the water separator (the translucent filter looking thing next to the low pressure filter). Any water in it? There is usually a red ring in it. If it is not laying on the bottom, there is water in the fuel.

If you can not tell for sure, pump some fuel into a clean container to see if it has any water in it.

The other thing is to see #26, the Idle Air Control (IAC) http://www.boats.net/parts/search/Honda/Outboard%20Engine/2003/BF130A3%20LCA%20/INTAKE%20MANIFOLD/parts.html

It controls the amount of air for starting and idling.

Make sure the connector is plugged in and the wires are not broken. Also, remove the assembly (2 bolts) and make sure that the screen #24 is clean. They get carboned up after a while. Wipe it off with some brake clean or non corrosive solvent. Do not spray into the IAC. Make sure that the hole in the intake is clean and free of carbon.

See if that helps.

If not remove the muffler case #12 and check for carbon build up in the throttle body #4. Wipe any carbon out with brake clean.

While you are there, remove the map sensor (two screws) and make sure the hole in the throttle body is clear and clean.

Lastly, I hope you changed the spark plugs with NKG ZFR7F.

Those are a few things to check.

Mike
 
Thanks for the quick reply Mike.

I don't have a compression tester but may be able to borrow one. What is the correct way to check compression? When I changed the plugs on the water they did not look like they had any water on them and all were about the same condition with no obvious problems, I will try again with the hose this week. I only use NGK supplied from the dealer.

I have checked the water seperator and has no water in it. It had a small amount when I bought the boat but not since.

I will check the high pressure pump, I don't have a tester so it will only be the squirt test.

After that I will start on the IAC & Throttle body as you have suggested. I'll get to some more tonight and give you an update.

Thanks again mate.
 
To check compression.... pull all of the spark plugs, pull the safety landyard (to eliminate the spark), pull the connectors off of the injectors (to eliminate the fuel) and put the throttle in throttle only and full throttle. Crank the engine for a few seconds. Compression should be some where are 199 -228 psi. Crank all cylinders the same amount of time.

As for the fuel pressure, the squirt test is better than nothing. Make sure it squirts for two seconds at key on and continues to squirt when cranking. Be sure to cover it with a rag and use safety glasses. Do it after or before you compression test with the spark and the injectors disabled

There are other things we have not eliminated yet, like the injectors....but it will be hard to check them very easily without the motor running.

Mike
 
OK, update of todays findings.


High pressure fuel pump is pumping. 2 seconds at key on and continuous while cranking. Squirts about 2 ½ to 3 inches. No water in the fuel squirted out.


Resistance on coils,
Pulser – 1070 ohm on both – OK.
Ignition secondary – 30 & 31k ohm – OK.


Resistance on injectors.
14.6, 14.0, 14.0, 14.5. ohms.
These readings are a little high from the service manual I have but uniform so I don't think this would be a problem. Manual states 11.1 to 12.3 ohms.


That is the good news. Bad news is I cranked & started the motor (Still rough & needs heaps of throttle) after checking the IAC connector and there was oil coming from the prop exhaust, only ran it for about 10 seconds. After seeing the oil I grabbed another beer and started typing this post.


Any ideas???


Head gasket or cracked head??
 
I think I will grab one too! Oil is not good.

Since you have the shop manual.. Check the timing marks on the top of the engine. If it jumped time, there may be a damaged valve.

Results of compression test? That might tell us something.

You may have to do a leak down test.....

Mike
 
I don't have a compression tester yet. Should have one on the weekend. If not I might invest in one & possibly a leak down tester.

I'll check the timing marks tonight. Valves could be an issue. When the valves were adjusted I was told they were out a lot & one valve was almost not closing. It has had a slight tap from the engine from when I first got it.

Craig
 
Todays update.

Compression test.
Cyl 1 - 150
Cyl 2 - 150
Cyl 3 - 0
Cyl 4 – 150

Just remembered I forgot to put in full throttle, would this explain the low 1,2 & 4 cyl reading?

When I pulled the plugs out they were all black with No. 3 & 4 covered in a little oil, these were put in on the water and while they were old plugs they were cleaned an re gapped before I used them in the boat for spares.


I put an inspection camera in and checked the pistons and could not see any pits or holes but could not see the valves to check them. Oil in the sump is clear as when I put it in so I am not thinking it's piston or rings.


Is there any reason one cylinder has lost compression but all 4 plugs are fouled the same amount??
 
At this point you will pump air into the cylinder that is zero and see where the leak is. IE..air from intake, or out of the oil fill, or out of the exhaust, or out of the water jacket.

The BF130 were susceptible to corrosion in the cylinder head causing large holes.
 
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Yes, your compression readings will be significantly lower if you forgot to hold the throttle wide open.

The plugs are most likely still sparking and burning fuel mix, even in the suspect cylinder, so that may account for why there is "little" difference in their discoloration. You did say there was some oil evident on 3 and 4.

Agree that this is where you would do a "leakdown" test to pinpoint the defect in cyl.3. This requires another special tool and procedures to perform correctly with useful results yielded.

You could pull the valve cover and simply visually check the operation of the #3 valve train components as a preliminary part of your investigation prior to obtaining a leak test.

Good luck.
 
Thanks for all the help guys. You have a great forum here.

I'll have to see if I can borrow a tester. I think I'll pull the valve cover off in the mean time and look for anything obvious.

Any idea on the cost af a replacement head if it is corroded?
 
A complete head was around $2000 US. It is no longer available in the US. You can only get the parts of the head and have to put it together. I do not know the availability in Australia.

Hopefully, you just have a stuck, bent or broken valve. Maybe one just lost it keeper. Maybe one or more of the valve adjusting nuts loosened and came off.

I hope you find something simple in your visual inspection.

Some of the heads have developed cracks in them. Generally, it causes water to get into the cylinder. #3 cylinder is typically the problem cylinder. That is why I asked about any water droplets.

How's that for thinking positively?

Mike
 
Todays update.

Mike you must have a sixth sense, and your positive thoughts are worth gold!

Took the valve cover off and first thing I noticed is that all 4 locking nuts on cylinder 3 are missing and the adjusting screws are all wound out.

Second thing I noticed was that one of the exhaust valve springs was hard on the rocker arm. Looks like the cotter & keeper have come off the valve stem. This explains the oil in the exhaust & lack of compression in that cylinder.

So I have a few questions.

  1. Could the valve have been damaged by the piston?
  2. What are the chances of all 4 locking nuts coming off on the same cylinder?
  3. Should I be worried about 4 locking nuts in my sump?
  4. Can I replace the cotter without taking the head off?

The reason I ask about the locking nuts is that I want to know if I should be approaching the mechanic who adjusted the valves and getting this repaired under warranty or that it is just bad luck.

Apart from the above everything else looks good.

Cheers
Craig.
 
I am glad you found something.

As for calling the mechanic who adjusted the valves....you bet. Those nuts have a torque 20 Nm. If they are not tight enough, what happens is what happened to you. The valve that lost the keeper may have been hit by the piston and might be bent. You should at this point be able to push and pull it by hand. If it does not move easily, it is probably bent and the head has to come off.

Make sure you talk to the Service Manager and nicely explain what you have experienced on the water and what you have found since. After all, if they were tight all these years until they worked on it, then someone probably did not torque the locking nuts.

The worst they can say is no.

Sometimes the keeper can be put on without pulling the head, if you are really lucky. I am not that lucky. You do not have to pull the powerhead to remove the head (which is the good news).

jgmo always has creative ideas as how to do that.

I am not sure what nuts you are talking about on the sump.

Mike
 
I agree with Mike (suprize, suprize, as Gomer would say) You probably DO have a beef with the tech that adjusted the valves. One thing you can do prior to confronting (nicely...at first) the dealer is to try and determine if he left any others loose as well. It's not all that easy to precisely tell if they haven't backed off on their own but using a wrench and applying what should be much less force than would be normally necessary to break them loose, see if some or all don't come off somewhat effortlessly. If you immediately encounter some like this, don't disturb all of them so that you can do a "show and tell" to dealer management during the (hopefully) civil discussion.

If you cannot locate the missing nuts, then there are two possibilities: One is that they all managed to vibrate and migrate to the same hiding place. I don't know this engine but the first place to check would be the oil drain-back holes. They could still be in a "covy" on top that maybe you missed so make a very thorough inspection.

The other is that, for some unknown reason, the tech took them off and forgot to reinstall them. If that's what happened then you have a fairly ironclad, open and shut, case for having the dealer make all necessary repairs at no charge with no argument or complaint. Also a pretty easy winner in court if it came to that as long as you paper and photo document all the evidence.

I have successfully reinstalled valve keepers by using shop air to hold the valve up against it's seat. Be advised though that it usually takes a significant amount of air pressure to accomplish this and, in most cases, the piston will move from TDC unless the crankshaft is locked down. This can HURT YOU so make sure you have it secure before trying this technique.

Another method, if you have room, is to wrap a small Zip Tie around the valve stem and use the ledge that it creates to get some purchase with a pry bar. This may require a helper since you may need three or four hands to pry, compress the spring and manipulate the keepers. It also helps if you hold your tongue just right :)~0>.

Of course, this is all about the valve not being bent. You stated in one of your earlier posts that you had put a camera in the cylinder and saw no obvious signs of damage to the piston crown. That is a good thing and you may have just gotten lucky enough that, if it did kiss a little, it was square on and not too violent.

Good luck with this little headache.

I learned early in my career working on engines to NOT stop and go to lunch in the middle of a valve adjustment or torquing bearings. Don't ask me why.
 
THanks again guys.

I will have a quick look at the other locking nuts to see if any are loose.

As for the 4 missing nuts I can only assume at this stage that they are in or somewhere near the sump (oil pan). There is an oil return tube in the bottom of the valve cover and the nuts most likely have found there way down there. I will drop the oil & see if I can see them or hopfully they will come out of the oil pan when I drain it.

If it turns out to be the Tech's fault (i.e. there are no nuts at all) should I be asking him to replace all 4 valves, seals, retainers on the cylinder in question?

The reason I ask is that the last thing I want to happen is to have it repaired then another bloody cotter let go because it was damaged from when the rockers were incorrectly adjusted.

Cheers
Craig.
 
Most likely the nuts are in the sump. They probably would not hurt anything there. I doubt that the oil pump would be able to suck them up into the pickup tube. If by some chance it did, there is a screen in the tube and that would stop it. Once the engine would stop, the nuts would fall back down.

Another thought...most likely they will not flow out with the oil, but you could get lucky. I have not checked, but I do not believe the nuts are stainless and might be able to be picked up by a magnet. You can check with the ones that are still there. So you might be able to fish the nuts out with a small magnet on the end of a wire. Just a thought.

It is hard to believe that the tech would have removed the nuts, since you only have to loosen them to adjust the valve clearance. If #3 was the set of valves that were way off, then he may have just checked the others and if ok, left them alone.

As for replacing the valves...you can always ask. Since they basically worked themselves loose, they just slowly closed down to the point that they did not open when they should. The one that the retainer came off is the real question...why did it come off? Was it jarred, bent, etc. That one may require them to pull the head anyway if it damaged. Once there, what is a couple more valves to replace for customer goodwill. The exhaust valve retails for around $54 US and the intake valves retail for about $35 US. So they may bulk on this unless they are damaged.

When finished with whatever they do, I would certainly ask them to perform a compression test and a leakdown test and provide you with the results. The leakdown will tell you how well the valves are sealing. There should be very little leakage.

Mike
 
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Will your inspection camera fit into the oil drain plug hole? Some of the newer ones are as small as 5mm and if it will fit, I would certainly try and locate the nuts and get them out if at all possible.
 
Dropped the oil today and i could see a nut sitting there, don't think i'll get it out of that hole though.

The valve moves but it is not what i call easy so I'm thinking it's bent.

What cylinder damage should i be worried about?
 
Piston might be damaged. Cylinder walls may be ok unless part of the valve got knocked off and bounced around inside the cylinder. The only way to know for sure is to pull the head. That is going to have to be done anyway at this point.

Mike
 
Hi Everyone, Bit of an update for you all.

After some negotiations with the Tech I have dropped the boat in for him to inspect. He has advised me that the head is cracked. He stated to me that the No.3 cylinder was getting water in it which seized the valves causing the adjustment to be out which caused the valve adjustment screws to be hammered which caused the nuts to come loose & break the cotter.

Honda Australia have been kept in the loop and have admitted that my model was in the range that had head issues and as an 'Act of good faith' are going to repair the damage including replacing the head with a new one.

So I am now waiting for Honda & the Tech to arrange testing & repairs.

I just hope the new head lasts longer than 500hrs.
 
That is great news. In the USA, the warranty was extended to 10 years from the original purchase date. The problem was a manufacturing defect and the new head should last a lot longer.

I assume they inspected the cylinder to assure no damage was done to that from rust, corrosion, etc.

Mike
 
Don't forget about us when she's up and runnin'. Let us know how it all comes out and may you get a little happiness in exchange for your patience.
 
Hi guys,
Another update. I picked up the boat yesterday after the head was replaced.

When i picked it up the tech said that he had sentthe head away to be tested and it didn't have a crack in the end. He said that the head gasket had blown though. Regardless Honda covered the cost of a replacement head and removal of the nuts in the oil pan.

I gave it a run when i got home and it ran great. I am hoping to gt it on the water next weekend and see how it goes.

Thanks again for all your help with this.
Cheers
Craig.
 
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