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Chrysler 360, mystery oil fitting.......?

Akjohn

Akjohn

Contributing Member
Has anyone seen this fitting before? if so can you make sense of it?

This oil line came off the back of a 1977 360/250hp, the male end of the brass T screws into the main oil galley just north of the intake manifold.

All three connections on the T are 1/8" NPT, so one side to the motor, one had a plug in it and the other had the wire bound rubber hose screwed into it. The wire bound rubber hose fed the cast aluminum bracket that the two oil sensors attach to, also attached to the casting is the drain hose (which is the only usefulness that makes any sense to me).

The problem I have is where the wire bound hose attaches to the brass T, the T should have a inverted flare (female) to keep it from leaking, the weird thing is I have two identical motors that I picked up second hand. (I have not run them in a boat...yet), in any case on one of the motors this line did NOT leak and the other it did.

So, this does not look right to me as you can use a flare fitting if it does not have a seat to tighten against, yet I suspect this has been this way for many moons, the fitting does appear to be 1/8" NPT and it can be tightened in the brass T, however the hose will still turn.......?

Any thoughts...........? DSCF3752.jpg
 

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The threads look to be 1/8" TP (tapered pipe)
The electric unit is an oil pressure gauge sending unit. An oil pressure switch has two terminals and is usually much smaller.

Looks like the PO did some plumbing to move the sending unit off engine, he then added the T and a quick disconnect hose/fitting for a mechanical gauge and/or an oil priming system.
These were rather common years ago.

None-the-less, it is unnecessary, IMO.... but leave it if you want to.
Otherwise, the sending unit can install directly into the engine oil port.... unless you like the idea of the quick disconnect being there.


.
 
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I see an oil presure switch. The short flex hose threads into the engine block center behind the intake
manifold. Thier should be a 2 prong low preasure switch thier some were to shut down the engine if
oil preasure drops below 15 psi.
 
The sensors I am not concerned about, I will figure that out when I get the boat, and I have figured out the fittings are 1/8 npt.
The 12" rubber whip has a check valve inline and could only be used for removing the oil.....

The question was concerning the attachment of the short rubber hose to the T, it has a flare fitting, so you dont have to rotate the whole apartus to attach/detach, however the flare should mate to a inverted flare in order to not leak back around the nut, the female end of the T needs to have this inverted flare. When I ran the motors, one leaked and one did not, I suspected there was some diffrences in the fittings but on disassembly they are identical.........

It is 1/8NPT all the way around, 2 female & 1 male, you can see it best in the first photo.

As the two motors are the same I suspect they came out the factory that way 35 years ago, the aluminum casting also supports the electrics, I was hoping some one here would recognize this..........I have never seen the boat these motors came out of......? With twin 360 and 1.52:1 gears I suspect it was a 36' or bigger boat.
 
John, you'll know if this is a flared style fitting if the female threaded area has the seat for the flare.
The open port in this photo does not appear to be correct for a flared fitting connection.... instead, it looks to be TP threads.




If that's the case, the connection into the T fitting below would appear to be incorrect.



The sending unit shown above is an oil pressure gauge sending unit.
Note the single post terminal.

Here's a new Teleflex replacement oil pressure sending unit.
images


Here's a low oil pressure switch.
76ps_pressure_switch_medres.jpg



A 1977 360/250hp Chrysler Marine engine most likely used a mechanical fuel pump.
If Chrysler Marine did use a low oil pressure system switch (of some sort), perhaps it's for something other than a fuel pump shut down.


.
 
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RicardoMarine said:
John, you'll know if this is a flared style fitting if the female threaded area has the seat for the flare.
The open port in this photo does not appear to be correct for a flared fitting connection.... instead, it looks to be TP threads.

If that's the case, the connection into the T fitting below would appear to be incorrect.

A 1977 360/250hp Chrysler Marine engine most likely used a mechanical fuel pump.
If Chrysler Marine did use a low oil pressure system switch (of some sort), perhaps it's for something other than a fuel pump shut down.

.
Click to expand...

Thats exactly what I have been saying, there is not a seat in the female end of the T, thats why it leaked.

The third side of the T had a plug in it, however even if the T had been added by someone (I doubt this, but who knows?), they would have needed an adaptor at the motor block just like I now need at the T, as it is 1/8"NPT as well.

I was hoping this was a common item, I will either find a adaptor to go into the T or redo the short rubber hose. Unless someone has a aha moment....!

Yes, The motors do have mech fuel pumps and I presumed the boat these came out of had a low oil cutout or a aditional warning light, buzzer, what ever, not a cocncern at this time, I can easily sort that stuff out when the time comes.
 
Akjohn said:
1... Thats exactly what I have been saying, there is not a seat in the female end of the T, thats why it leaked.

2.... The third side of the T had a plug in it, however even if the T had been added by someone (I doubt this, but who knows?), they would have needed an adaptor at the motor block just like I now need at the T, as it is 1/8"NPT as well.

3.... I was hoping this was a common item, I will either find a adaptor to go into the T or redo the short rubber hose. Unless someone has a aha moment....!

4.... Yes, The motors do have mech fuel pumps and I presumed the boat these came out of had a low oil cutout or a aditional warning light, buzzer, what ever, not a cocncern at this time, I can easily sort that stuff out when the time comes.
Click to expand...

1... I'm not surprised that it leaked. That flare must seat against a correct counter-part, or it will not form a seal.


2 & 3... Why not come out of the engine with a correct T fitting and then thread the oil pressure sending unit into the T.
This takes care of the Negative connection for the sending unit.
Then run your primer quick disconnect hose from a correct fitting threaded into the T.
I'll bet that NAPA can provide you with the fittings necessary.


4.... Yep!



John, how important is it for you to have the oil system priming ability that attaches to the quick disconnect? Have you even used it?
If not, I'd abandom all that crap, and thread the oil pressure sending unit directly into the engine oil port.


.
 
RicardoMarine said:
1... I'm not surprised that it leaked. That flare must seat against a correct counter-part, or it will not form a seal.


2 & 3... Why not come out of the engine with a correct T fitting and then thread the oil pressure sending unit into the T.
This takes care of the Negative connection for the sending unit.
Then run your primer quick disconnect hose from a correct fitting threaded into the T.
I'll bet that NAPA can provide you with the fittings necessary.

John, how important is it for you to have the oil system priming ability that attaches to the quick disconnect? Have you even used it?
If not, I'd abandom all that crap, and thread the oil pressure sending unit directly into the engine oil port.
.
Click to expand...

It is not a PRIMER, no, I have never used it....! I am certain it is to facilitate oil changes..................
Have you read what I have written? AM I that inept at explaining what is going on here?
These motors I bought off of CL, I have gotten them running with the intention to install in a boat I have not seen yet, I know its a crazy idea........

OK sorry, I am feeling a little frustrated as I keep hearing what I already know......................

I can easily figure out how to work-around this, there is a dozen possibilities to make it work, I believe this was from the factory, what factory I do not know.....?
I will explain the short wire bound rubber hose again, it is a shunt to deliver oil to the aluminum casting that supports the electrics and the two sensors/ sending units and the drain hose.
This short rubber wire bound hose has to have a fitting that swivels to aid in assembly, hence the flare..........I can redo all of this, I just thought some chrysler guy would say, oh yeah, I have one like that and this is what you need or this is how it works.......
 
I think the only person that can explain that thing to you is the goof ball that assembled it. The only logical thing i can think of is, that was a band-aid fix with junk in someones tool box just to get the thing home.

good luck
 
buick430 said:
I think the only person that can explain that thing to you is the goof ball that assembled it. The only logical thing i can think of is, that was a band-aid fix with junk in someones tool box just to get the thing home.

good luck
Click to expand...

Will,
I disagree, that cast aluminum bracket is part of the package and that was not created by a goof ball out of their tool box, I cannot believe this is the only 360 with that bracket...........!

Now perhaps the hose is not original but where on earth would a guy come up with a wire bound rubber hose the right lenght? In fact two of them?
Sure we all have odds & ends in our tool boxes that we save for that unique situation..........I dont think this is the case.

I am convinced this rolled out the factory door this way 30 some years ago, there may be a missing fitting that got lost along the way, but losing two fittings? And only one leaked, this was a weep, it was not spraying oil, I have had/seen external oil ines leak and they spray oil and will empty a motor of its vital fluid rather quickly.

I can accept the fact that no-one on this here chrysler forum has seen this, but there is no way these are the only two motors built with this hose, casting, drain line, pressure switch and mystery sensor..................
 
John, I can't see the hose fitting as well as you can. But take another close look at it.
Does the one hose look like it has a quick disconnect on the end.... sorta like where you'd connect a test gauge?
It would allow for a female connecting fitting, and would have a check valve at the tip..... sort of like a shrader valve.
In order for the rest of my post to make sense, we need to confirm this.
See image below.

But let's assume that it is an oil priming set up!
If so, these quick disconnects were used years ago to pump oil into the engine oil system for engines that had been sitting for a while.
It works as though you removed the distributor, and turned the oil pump with a primer tool.
Also, and I say this respectfully, just because you have not used them, does not mean that they were not originally intended for oil priming.

They could also be used for a mechanical oil pressure test gauge to check against an electric gauge and sender.

Again, and if we can assume that this if for oil priming..... this would not be a Chrysler exclusive component.
This can be found on other marine engines.
And yes.... this was a product that you could purchase as a marine item... and perhaps these were OEM on your engines.
That may explain the metal brackets and wire spring wrapped hoses.
It would not explain the fittings being incorrect for a good seal.

None of which means that you require them today.

Again, and if we can assume that these are quick disconnects..... I can assure you that the quick disconnect portion of this is not for oil changing. In order to use that for oil changing, the engine would need to be operated in order to force any oil from it..... and we just simply do not do that. There are too many other tried and proven methods for changing oil.

John, if it were me, and since you have not used them previously and/or most likey do not intend to use them in the futue......, I'd abandom them completely.
I'd then re-install the oil pressure gauge sending unit, either with a stand-off fitting, or whatever works best.
 

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I dont think the factory would had put the flared fitting in a non flare fitting. It almost looks like an automotive brake line??

will
 
Rick,
The fitting on the end the whip that you are pointing at in the picture is barbed to help retain a hose over the end when draining the oil. This is not a primer! There is no schrader valve. I have had it apart, there is a check valve (ball and spring with the spring to the free end) in the end that only allows oil to flow out, not in, thats what check valves do. This could only be used to suck the oil out of the motor when the oil is warm as it is in the main oil galley directly to the oil pump and at the lowest part of the motor.

There is no other way to remove the oil from these motors and using this as a drain is the only explanation for this particular hose. I intially thought this was for priming also, but the check valve would prevent that for happening. There is a oil drain plug on the front of the motor, that I presume would be inaccessiable once in the boat and the angle is such that several quarts of oil would remain in the motor after the plug was removed. The dipstick tube could be used for removing the oil, however it also enters the oil pan mid-way and would leave several quarts of oil behind, it is possible that a flexible hose could reach to a lower section of the pan.

I have the motor setting on its motor mounts to emulate the angle it would be in the boat, it is a guess. The motor is sitting roughly at 12 degress and I supect that would be close using a straight drive gearbox. I am convinced the whip in the photo is for draining.

Really I am not cocncerned about this line, I will figure out the best way to change the oil when I get my boat.

One of the motors had a mechanical gauge attached to the brass T that screws into the block so that eliminates that idea. Its the gauge I used when I ran the motors.

I was hoping to find a explanation for the male fitting on the short piece of rubber hose that screwed into the T, but doubt I am going to find that here.......thanks for your thoughts, but forget about the primer...............J
 
buick430 said:
I dont think the factory would had put the flared fitting in a non flare fitting. It almost looks like an automotive brake line??

will
Click to expand...

I have to agree, the flared end does indeed look like a brake line connection..............however they are both identical and the weird part is only one leaked and it was just seeping.
It certainly is possible that in 36 years someone changed this out, but it seems like they went through more work to do this instead of using or reusing the correct parts......
 
Akjohn said:
Rick,
I have had it apart, there is a check valve (ball and spring with the spring to the free end) in the end that only allows oil to flow out, not in, thats what check valves do.

This could only be used to suck the oil out of the motor when the oil is warm as it is in the main oil galley directly to the oil pump and at the lowest part of the motor.
Click to expand...
John, I don't want to get on your bad side and/or to lock horns with you over this.
In spite of your response to Sea Clam in Bill's thread......, my only intent is to help you understand what I think you have going on here.

Would you do me a favor please?
Post a close up photo of the end of this one hose for us.


My thoughts are......., that if this hose was to be used to evacuate engine oil via suction from some type of suction or extraction pump, it would be pulling negative pressure on all engine bearing surfaces..... cam bearings, cam follower bores, crank bearings and rod bearings, etc.
The sum of all of these bearing surfaces would eventually breach suction.
These bearing surfaces are intended to be under positive pressure, not negative pressure.

Add to this, that there is really no direct path to the oil in the oil pan via this hose.
Suction would need to reach down eventually through the oil pump, and somehow pull from the oil pan.
That just aint gonna happen in any quick fashion.

Engine oil extraction systems are generally connected directly to the oil pan..... not at engine oil pressure galleys..... of which is where this particular fitting connects, and is also why you see your oil pressure gauge sending unit installed in this port.

BTW, if these engines are not yet installed, now is your opportunity to install remote oil drain hoses into the oil pans. There are kits available that make this simple and easy to do.



John, if there is a spring loaded check device at the tip of this fitting (as you said there is), it is most likely part of a quick disconnect affair, such as commonly used in a hydraulic quick disconnect. What you're not able to see, would be the counter-part..... ( I.E., the female portion of the quick disconnect.)
Where that part is now....... who knows!

Here are examples of a hydraulic quick disconnect system..... aka "quick coupling".
While you can see the tip of the check valve on the male portion, there is also a counter-part to this check valve within the female portion.
When the two are connected, each check valve tip contacts one another, thus holding both valves open, allowing oil flow.
When disconnected, each valve again "checks".
61-series.jpg


In this image, you can just barely see the female portion check valve tip.
hydraulic-fittings-1-2102.jpg


I spent some years working in the heavy equipment manufacturing industry.
We routinely used this type of scenario for pressure testing instruments, and even for supplying remotely located hydraulic cylinders.
Similar scenarios are used for equipment whereby hydraulic impliments are interchangeable.

Example:
Remove a back hoe, and install a mower.... and/or visa-versa.
Pop the quick disconnects apart.... swap impliments..... re-connect the hydraulics.
 
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Was There a cap on the end of the non wire bound hose, on the "check-valve"? I may be misunderstanding you but would the oil not spew out with the engine running if the check valve is oriented the way your saying and the line not capped?
 
Rick,
I hear ya on this and these things have entered my mind as well, drawing the thin film of oil from bearings........I just dont know, warm oil could easily be pulled through this hose, through sucktion could you draw the oil away from the bearing and then all you would get is air? I dont know, I didnt not try it when the oil was warm, I wished I had.....I did try my honey gun on it when it was cold and did not get any flow. I dont know how much suction a honey gun has but I doubt it would be as much as a bonified oil sucker outer.......!

This hose is connected to the main oil galley and straight down to the oil pump, you couldnt get more direct........!
Could you pull warm oil through the oil pump? I dont know the answer to that one, If I could get so lucky to find someone that knows what they are.............!
As on seen them before.........this is not the only pair of 360's so equiped..........I have a habit of aquiring quirky stuff......but this came this way........

There is no QD, and thanks, but I know what they look like....jeezzz, give a guy some credit here.....
I may not use these, once I have the boat I will figure out the best way to go to remove the oil, I was hoping that someone would recognize them and fill in the blanks.
Will take a photo later today.....J
 
buick430 said:
Was There a cap on the end of the non wire bound hose, on the "check-valve"? I may be misunderstanding you but would the oil not spew out with the engine running if the check valve is oriented the way your saying and the line not capped?
Click to expand...

No cap Will, I thought the same and the only explanation is the check valve has to hold back 80-100 psi........it certainly does as these were in when I had them running......
 
John, I just called a friend of mine who is a Volvo Penta and Merc repair shop owner.
He also works on many of the older I/B boats.... GM, Fords, Chrsyler, etc.
I asked him about this hose affair, and I'll be dog goned if you aren't correct.

Marc said that these were an after-market unit, and were used for both oil changing and pre-oiling (or pre-pressurizing) the oil systems.

When used for pre-oiling, a pump affair was attahced and oil pressure entered the oil galleys.
Apparently the idea behind oil chaning, was to warm the engine, then connect the hose to a container, and open a valve and run the engine.

He's seen both the quick couper and the style with some sort of valve at the end, but said that he hasn't seen one for years.
He went on to say that he's never used them, and thought that it was not a good idea for oil changing.

So it looks like there's a bit of new info in this for the both of us.
For me, I've learned that these were also used for oil changing..... and quite frankly, I'm surprised.
IMO, what a silly way to change oil!

.
 
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The original marine 318/360 sbc had the brass tee fitting mounted on the aluminum bracket.
The wire wound hose went to the enging oil pressure port on the block.
The pressure transmitter was mounted on the right of the tee fitting.
An oil pressure switch was installed on the left side of the tee. the OP switch was used in the field circuit of the alternator interupting voltage from the regulator to the alternator untill the engine was running with OP.
There are very few of the old style three wire alternators (field/ armature or batt. /ground ) Most you will see are internally regulated allowing you to remove the switch, voltage regulator and wiring.
You can also plumb the pressure transmitter switch any way you want as the original hoses are hard to come by and used to be very expensive.
Joe L
 
joe_l said:
The original marine 318/360 sbc had the brass tee fitting mounted on the aluminum bracket.
The wire wound hose went to the enging oil pressure port on the block.
The pressure transmitter was mounted on the right of the tee fitting.
An oil pressure switch was installed on the left side of the tee. the OP switch was used in the field circuit of the alternator interupting voltage from the regulator to the alternator untill the engine was running with OP.
There are very few of the old style three wire alternators (field/ armature or batt. /ground ) Most you will see are internally regulated allowing you to remove the switch, voltage regulator and wiring.
You can also plumb the pressure transmitter switch any way you want as the original hoses are hard to come by and used to be very expensive.
Joe L
Click to expand...

Joe, I think you are right on concerning the OP switch as that is the only thing that makes sense to me, I dont have the boat these motors came out of so can only surmise. The sensors & switch ar really not a concern, but good to have verification.
The wire bound hose is another matter, even if it went to the engine block the conncetion is the same as at the brass T, male flare to 1/8" npt, and there really is no reason for the T at either the engine block end or at the cast aluminum "cross". Ultimately this appears to me to be a incorrect match as far as fittings go.

This diagram shows the short hose, but not enough detail to see the fittings, and this is not a identical setup, it shows a bracket (8) and mentions a cross that the oil line connects to, but does not show the cross. On my motors I do not have a bracket as the cast aluminum bracket in my pictures supports the electronics and is a oil feed line to the sensor, switch and extraction tube.........

http://www.marinepartssource.com/chryslerpb/7585-ecsno915.asp

Maybe no one here can answer this......I only took it apart because it was leaking, when I looked at the fitting I was sure something was wrong or missing....? Then I took the second one apart to find it was the same way.........I dont think its right, and in my mind there is no way to prevent it from leaking as is.......perhaps there is an explanation...................J
 
akjohn,
If I remember correctly, the wire wrapped line went - engine to the alum bracket, the Tee screwed into the bracket and the op switch and op trans screwed into the other two ports on the tee. There was an optional alarm package that included a second oil pressure switch that acted as a low pressure alarm.That is all. any thing over that was owner installed and you would have to see the boat to determine reasoning. (another pressure switch for elec fuel pump or alarm?) The oil can not be drained from the pressure port and you would require an external hi press pump to prime from there. . The bracket served as a mount for the tee and the electrics.
Just replumb it to meet your requirements.
I will look tommorow at a boat and confirm.
Joe
 
akjohn,
I looked at two circa 1980 318's today and they were plumbed the same.
The wire wrapped hose was 1/8th pipe into the block / the other end was 1/8th inverted flare going to a female inverted flare machined into the aluminum support fitting. the aluminum support had an additional three female 1/8th pipe machined into it in order to mount OP trans and low press switch. the third outlet was plugged. There was no brass tee and no need for one.
Hope that helps.
Joe
 
Hi Joe, I appreciate you following up on this, I was stoked as I had not removed the hose from the cast aluminum support.

I finally got a chance to disassemble it today and unfortunately the cast aluminum support is not a inverted female flare, it is 1/8" NPT as is all the other fittings.
Did you remove the hose from the bracket on the 318's you looked at?
Which end of the hose was at the block? One end has a female nut that is swedged on and does not swivel, the other end the nut rotates, on mine, the end that roatates was into the brass T at the motor.

And your right, there is no reason for a T at that location, on one of my motors the unused port had a plug, on the other motor there was a 12' hose with a mechanical OP gauge.


I was hoping as I thought someone had gotten the hose turned around.....John
 

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buick430 said:
I think the only person that can explain that thing to you is the goof ball that assembled it. The only logical thing i can think of is, that was a band-aid fix with junk in someones tool box just to get the thing home.

good luck
Click to expand...
I think whoever put that brass tee on did it so they could have a oil pressure gauge at the motor as well as the helm. See if you can find a oil pressure gauge that will thread into the brass tee. It was modified. If you don't need it ,take it out and go the OEM way it was plummed.
 
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