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Crusader LH Rotation using RH firing order

J

jpm5664

New member
Runs but surges when at idle. Anyone ever seen this. I haven't tried to change the firing order yet. Kind a stumped. the engine has a TBI installed
no error codes in computer.
 
We are puzzled as well. LH/RH? Did you convert a LH to RH and see a surge issue? What engine size/year? Give us some history.
 
diver_dave said:
We are puzzled as well. LH/RH? Did you convert a LH to RH and see a surge issue? What engine size/year? Give us some history.
Click to expand...

Hello
Just bought the boat, twin crusaders, with v drives. Both engines were running fine with the exception of fuel economy. I bought some TBI Kits and installed on both engines. the starboard engine has the correct firing order and runs great. The port engine which runs cw from the front dampener. had the same firing order and it ran until I put on the TBI Kit then it would not idle. I should say I noticed the firing order was not right when it would not idle.

I changed the firing order to standard rotation which it should be, set timing and it will idle now but not responsive.
the engines are 350 (crusader 270) and supposedly 135hrs. there is 125 to 135 lb of compression on all cylinders. running fuel pressure is 12psi,
No Vacuum leaks. Return fuel pressure is about 1 psi. no error codes.
to say the least I have never seen a engine run with the wrong firing order. I do not know if the previous owner had to convert it since it is a standard rotation motor.
 
JPM, both of your ignition distributors will rotate CW when viewed from over-head.
Firing order always begins with #1 cylinder @ TDC C/S.
The only difference between the Standard LH engine and the REV RH engine firing order, will be the order in which all other cylinder fire after #1.

Std LH SBC engine firing order is

images


For the REV RH rotation engine, start from #1 and follow with #2.
Follow #2 with #7 in this direction until you come to #8.


I'm thinking that your TBI system should not know the difference in rotation.



NOTE: if by chance you are trying to reverse the direction of a standard LH engine to become a REV RH engine, the wrist pin offset will be incorrect.
 
The port engine which runs cw from the front dampener. had the same firing order and it ran until I put on the TBI Kit then it would not idle. I should say I noticed the firing order was not right when it would not idle.
Click to expand...

Ayuh,.... If the pulleys are turnin' Clockwise, that's a standard left handed motor, as viewed from the PTO end,....
 
bondo said:
Ayuh,.... If the pulleys are turnin' Clockwise, that's a standard left handed motor, as viewed from the PTO end,....
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Bill, that thought crossed my mind as well.

However, he has V-drives, which means that he is flywheel-end-forward.

I also thought about "oposite-of-engine-rotation" transmssions, but I'm not sure if V-drives offer that.

JPM, here is how we determine engine rotation.
This is industry standard, whether auto, industrial or Marine, and is always determined as though viewing the flywheel end of the engine.
 

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If it was running before the TBI work, then the starter is spinning the engine in the correct direction....

"V-drive" infers lots of configuration options, so I'd discount that.

I'd suggest getting the firing order correct and then put a vaccuum gauge on the engine...if there's an air leak to the intake, surging is very likely..
 
Ooops, I failed to label each rotation.

Std LH rotation left side.... REV RH rotation right side.
 

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So it surges after installing an aftermarket TBI system? Put a vacuum gauge on it and see what you get. Sorry to say the TBI system is not anymore fuel efficient than a carb.

Assuming the TBI system that you installed has a MAP and an IAC motor. A vacuum leak will cause the surge you are having. This is where I would start. You can mask a Vacuum leak on a carbed engine. You cannot on a TBI with a MAP and IAC motor.

Did you get this system?
http://www.affordable-fuel-injection.com/ixxocart/catalog/Marine-19-1.html
 
Last edited:
RicardoMarine said:
Bill, that thought crossed my mind as well.

However, he has V-drives, which means that he is flywheel-end-forward.

I also thought about "oposite-of-engine-rotation" transmssions, but I'm not sure if V-drives offer that.

JPM, here is how we determine engine rotation.
This is industry standard, whether auto, industrial or Marine, and is always determined as though viewing the flywheel end of the engine.
Click to expand...

Ayuh,.... True enough, but he said, "which runs cw from the front dampener."
 
bondo said:
RicardoMarine said:
Bill, that thought crossed my mind as well.

However, he has V-drives, which means that he is flywheel-end-forward.

I also thought about "oposite-of-engine-rotation" transmssions, but I'm not sure if V-drives offer that.

JPM, here is how we determine engine rotation.
This is industry standard, whether auto, industrial or Marine, and is always determined as though viewing the flywheel end of the engine.
Click to expand...
Ayuh,.... True enough, but he said, "which runs cw from the front dampener."
Click to expand...

Bill, I agree with you.... if his front engine damper/harmonic balancer is turning CW, that engine would be Std LH rotation...... even if flywheel end forward for a V-drive transmission.

IOW, and at the risk of redundancy here ........ whether a conventional shaft drive installation or a flywheel forward installation, engine rotation is always determined as though viewing from the flywheel end.


.


.
 
The OP says:

Runs but surges when at idle. Anyone ever seen this. I haven't tried to change the firing order yet. Kind a stumped. the engine has a TBI installed
no error codes in computer.

.................. I should say I noticed the firing order was not right when it would not idle.

I changed the firing order to standard rotation which it should be, set timing and it will idle now but not responsive.
Click to expand...
Perhaps the OP is mistaking firing order for ignition advance!!??

Chris, I agree that your assessment may be right on!

Sometimes we deviate from what may be the most obvious to some, and we elaborate on other issues that may be in question.

Hopefully the OP will come back and post his resolve.


.
 
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Summer Heat said:
Is that why you got banned from the bayliner owners club ?. You deviated too many times and got spanked.
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Dear SUMMER HEAT,

I have found the tone on this forum to be extremely civil. I really would appreciate it if you would refrain from contemplating starting "troll-like" postings.

Let's all KEEP it civil here...please;)
 
willow said:
Dear SUMMER HEAT,

I have found the tone on this forum to be extremely civil. I really would appreciate it if you would refrain from contemplating starting "troll-like" postings.

Let's all KEEP it civil here...please;)
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Ayuh,.... My thoughts as well,.....
 
Bondo, Jeff, Rick, others...

You guys do a great job. This is an awesome forum.

Thanks for helping boat owners like me to build up the courage to tackle projects that I'd otherwise shy away from.

I've learned a lot here.
 
Thanks to all of you for your kind words and support… I appreciate that!

Apparently "Summer Heat" has nothing better to do with his time than to cyber stalk me!
This person (it's obvious who this is!) gives us an example of how some people are threatened by the knowledge of others!


Hopefully the OP here has solve his issue by now.



.
 
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RicardoMarine said:
JPM, both of your ignition distributors will rotate CW when viewed from over-head.
Firing order always begins with #1 cylinder @ TDC C/S.
The only difference between the Standard LH engine and the REV RH engine firing order, will be the order in which all other cylinder fire after #1.

Std LH SBC engine firing order is

images


For the REV RH rotation engine, start from #1 and follow with #2.
Follow #2 with #7 in this direction until you come to #8.


I'm thinking that your TBI system should not know the difference in rotation.



NOTE: if by chance you are trying to reverse the direction of a standard LH engine to become a REV RH engine, the wrist pin offset will be incorrect.
Click to expand...
I'm really wondering if this is what's happening to me I have twin crusaders also and the stamps on the engines are opposite the port stamped rh the starboard lh the starter went out I got it rebuilt put it back in now it won't turn over doesn't even sound like it's getting spark my car mechanic changed the firing order we were both really confused I still can't get it to turn over plenty of power and spark at the coil and plugs my engine had to have been set up this way.
 
Sorry guys I'm new to this site I have an 89 carver 3207 and I've put a lot of work into with my dad now the port side engine just won't turn over and this has been like a small knot that's turned into a much bigger one same problem still there pissed away some more money but still can't take the boat out put new plugs new coil new starter tested every damn thing compression checked for spark checked for power checked for fuel it doesn't sound like it's getting spark I spray starting fluid in there it doesn't even cough just cranks and now idk what the firing order is the way the engines are stamped.
 
Slow down....

you need to take a breath and give enough detail so we can understand what the problem(s) is (are)....and, not to pick but a little punctuation helps us in understanding what you are typing...

which rotation goes on which side is driven by 1) the gear ratio (and type of gear) and 2) whether you use an line configuration (or the V-drive approach).

FWIW, throwing parts at an engine rarely fixes it fast or economically...you are almost always better off diagnosing the problem first.
 
so im having a very similar issue with my boat, I have an 89 carver 3207 with twin crusader engines. I took the boat out a couple monts ago after replacing the risers and elbows on both engines and a fuel pump and some other stuff on the starboard engine. I took the boat out for a few hours after having to pump a little water out of the tank , i thin its important to note the engine ran perfectly it had good compression and no over heating issues or anything. So the engine stalls and i have a hard time starting it long story short the starter died i had it tested and after ordering one which i found out after rotates the wrong way so i had the old one rebuilt. I put it back in and for weeks tried to figure out why it just cranks and cranks no start doesnt sound like any spark either. So i tested everything i replaced the coil i replaced all the plugs i tested spark and power.This is where it gets confusing the starboard engine is stampedLH and the port engine is stamped RH when i couldnt figure it out i called my mechanic that works on my cars, we spent 4 hours trying to figure this out. We noticed the firing order was different in the book so i changed it nothing happened so i changed it back again. Ive done this several times now with no luck. I finally called a marine mechanic that charges $500 for the first hour but will guarantee the diagnostic. He determined the engine was running backwards, so i pulled the rebuilt starter out only to see it was rotating the same as the first one i ordered and this time they rotated the same way so i knew he rebuilt it wrong.Finally i was able to get it right and put everything back in but nothing has changed its the same symptoms as before it just cranks it doesnt sound like its even trying to turn over. I am waiting on this mechanic to come back out again now im even more confused then before the god damn thing ran perfect before now i dont know what else to do how could something so simple turn into all this crap! If theres any one reading this that has any ideas i would love to hear them
 
makomark said:
Slow down....

you need to take a breath and give enough detail so we can understand what the problem(s) is (are)....and, not to pick but a little punctuation helps us in understanding what you are typing...

which rotation goes on which side is driven by 1) the gear ratio (and type of gear) and 2) whether you use an line configuration (or the V-drive approach).

FWIW, throwing parts at an engine rarely fixes it fast or economically...you are almost always better off diagnosing the problem first.
Click to expand...
i totally agree im really green when it comes to all this thankn you for taking the time to try and help me , I just posted the latest on this whole problem i have.
 
ok....RH and LH designate how the engine operates and has no direct bearing on which side of the hull its sits on. The factory manuals clearly show which is which.

You need the proper starter (rotation) for the engine....and since they are marine specific, getting the right one can be a challenge in some cases. If whoever rebuilt the starter did it 'backwards' they didn't know what they were doing as the gears are different between the two starters (RH and LH).

"Pumping a little water out of the <FUEL> tank" suggests a lot of concerns....do you know you removed all of the water? How long has the water been in the tank? has the fuel filter(s) been changed? any water in it? is there any water in the carb's float bowl? and, how did the water enter the fuel tank? I also don't understand how"... the engine ran perfectly..." turned into having to pump water from the fuel tank.....
 
So to give an update we finally got the engine to run ! I believe the timing is slightly off and we need to rebuild the carb. The tough thing about all of this is all the money i wasted but I get a back up starter should the other one go out ! It ended up being the ignition module inside the distributor and the idle is high and a little rough but I replace the fuel filter with a new one , I changed out the old oil the plugs and yes I agree the water could have been a problem but I'm sure we got it all out I'm not quite there but I'm close Thank you for all the help and wisdom
 
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