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Honda Tilt/Trim fill - bleed

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Bardcard

Member
My 97 90HP Honda tilt/trim is a little sluggish this winter. I had the boat out for the first time in 4 months last week and the tilt is slow/non responsive for a few seconds then kicks in.

What I want to know is there a correct method to fill the fluid and bleed an air out of the system? I just got the Honda Tilt fluid, and want to check/fill the fluid.
I do not see any evidence of leaking anywhere.


Thanks,

Bardcard
 
Well, I will continue this subject and see if you guys can help me figure this out. It will be long and confusing, but hopefully you can follow.
After searching the web, I went through the process of filling / bleeding the t&t by raising the motor with t&t and opening the valve on side and letting it lower itself several times and adding fluid. System seemed to work much better.
1st trip to lake, get to ramp and Transom saver is hanging and broken. It had a small kink previously so thought it finally gave up. When I got home, I went through the fluid add process again to make sure I had no problem. Still no sign of any leaking.
2nd trip to lake, friend following says it looks like my motor is bouncing. Check and there is about 4 inches of play. Resnug motor on saver and proceed. After 30 miles check and loose again.
Question 1: Is it low on fluid again? If so, is there a good way to force a leak to find it? If there is a leak in o-ring or seal, I can probably fix myself, but hate to just start replacing everything if there is not a leak.
Question 2: Does the length of Transom Saver matter? New one is longer than old one. Can you tilt too much?
Question 3: What is proper method of snugging motor to saver? After this problem, have gotten different inputs on how to snug. I have always lowered motor to snug against saver, then hit it a second more to make it good and tight.

Tanks for any thoughts,

Bardcard
 
I may be off base here, but the first thought to comes to mind is that the manual release is not tightened down correctly, or a piece of dirt got into the threads, and it is not completely closing the relief valve.
 
I am going to try again, and see if you guys can help me now.
I checked the bleed screw and it was tight, and the oring is in the fill cap.
After checking more closely, can see a small amount of fluid around right trim cylinder, so order new seals/orings for trim cylinders.
Raise motor up, put on motor block, remove two trim cylinders and replace oring/seals. Lost some fluid when first cylinder loosened, but none from second. Filled cylinder wells with fluid,put cylinders back in.
Remove fill cap and fill tank with small amount of fluid.
Now the problem. I have no tilt power at all. Motor will not raise. So I manually raise it while helper is pushing up switch, put it on motor block, and check fluid level. Fluid comes out when I remove cap.
Have had it in every position, with Bleed valve open and closed, but cannot get any more fluid in.
It will not raise by itself at all. Can lift it and it will hold about 3 inched up.Let it manually bleed down from there to try and get air out.
Removed Trim cylinder from motor, and it does raise and lower.
What do I need to try?
Any ideas?

Thanks,

Bardcard
 
Update:
Got the tilt/trim working good. Finally got fluid in the tank, goes up and down smoothly.
But still have the original problem.
Can tilt the motor up and leave it for an hour, it will not drop any at all, having measured it from the floor.
When I put the transom saver on and snug the motor down on it with the trim, within 1 minute I have two inches of play, meaning I can pull the motor up of the saver two inches.
Does anyone know where I am loosing my pressure?

Thanks,

Bardcard
 
Interesting thread....other than Chawk, you seem to be giving yourself most of the answers.\

Personally, when I put a transom saver on for a customer, I just bring the motor down and just barely touch the transom saver. I have see a couple come in where the customer brought the motor down so tight, that the transom saver made a hole on both sides of the lower unit.

I am not an expert on trim units (do not see much trouble with them on Hondas), but here are a couple of thoughts...

You may still have some air in the system. Your bleeding method sounds right, but you did not say when you lowered the motor, that you let it sit for 10 minutes or so and when you raised it all the way up, you took off the fill cap, added fluid, then let it sit for another 10 minutes or so. It there is air in the system, raising it up and down will cause very small bubbles to be suspended in the trim fluid. It takes a while for them to work themselves out. You will have to do this several times.

I just bled a 225 over a two hour period. I let it sit for a long time in between raising and lowering, while I was doing other things. It had a lot of gurgle in it when it came in, but most of it is gone now.

Anyway...

Do you see any other leakage, especially on the tilt cylinder?

Have you ever changed the seals on the tilt cylinder?

When you changed the seals, are you sure you oriented them correctly?

Does the motor raise up when you give it full power in reverse or does the trim hold it in place? If it raises, it could be air or it could be the one or more of the bypass valves (little ball bearings) in the end of the tilt rod are stuck open. None of the parts breakdowns that I know of show these guys. They open up when there is too much pressure like when you tighten it down to the transom saver or if you hit something in the water.

I would first give it another try at bleeding.

Mike
 
Thanks Mike for looking at this. While bleeding/filling, I would wait 10-30 minutes before filling to let it settle out. When I let it fall with the manual valve, at first there were all kinds of air noise, but none at all now.

I see no other sigh of leakage at all.

No I have not changed the seals in the tilt cylinder.

I put the seals back in the same direction as the ones taken out.

I have not had any problem with the motor moving at all on the water, forward or reverse.

I will try bleeding again tomorrow and see if it improves after it has settled overnite.

Thanks,

Bardcard
 
The last time I had to bleed my 225 it took a bunch of times to get all the air out. each time after you top off the fluid run it up and down several times then let it sit in the down position for a while. No need to drop it manually with the relief valve.
 
Chawk, my understanding was that was one way to bleed some of the air out of system. Is that not correct? There was a lot of air escaping early in the process, but none now.

Thanks,

Bardcard
 
Yes, that is the correct way to bleed the system. The point I was making is that it does take some time to get it all out. But if you are still having a problem, Mike is likely correct that one of the check valves is not closing properly or an internal seal is failing. I don't think there is any way to fix that except to tear it down. I've never done that but I understand that it is not a fun job and takes some special tools.
 
Would you change the O-rings and seals on the main cylinder as a next step? The two trim pistons were not a bad job other than getting fluid back in.

Bardcard
 
Sorry for the slow reply, I've been off the net for a few days. I guess changing the O rings is the only think left to do. Do you have the shop manual? They explain the procedure in detail.
 
Complicated is relative. To me, I would not tackle it without the shop manual. Plus, you need to find those check valves and make sure they are working . Maybe someone else on this forum can give detailed advice. Another piece of free advice - pony up the $116 for the official Honda Shop Manual by Helm. In the long run it will save you a bunch of money because of the detailed diagnostics and repair procedures. You can get it on eBay or Amazon, or off the Honda Marine website.
 
Have ordered a shop manual today. Hopefully it will help me get to the bottom of this confusing problem. Once I receive it I'm sure I will have more questions.

Thanks,
Bardcard
 
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