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Newly overhauled 1976 Ford 302 won't start

N

Neal Franson

Regular Contributor
No joy yet. I tried about 20 times at 20 seconds each and no go. I had plenty of batteries throughout, which is the good news. Sometimes I tried twisting the distributer 10 degrees one way and 10 degrees the other and it always sounded best right in the middle of where I found the 10 degree advance, where it sounded like it may be getting ready to start. It didn't matter if I pumped the gas or put in starter fluid. It did pop at times, even in the middle of the timing area. I adjusted the choke a bit and I did put the timing light on all the spark plug leads to ensure I had spark in all and it checked out well -plenty of spark in all 8. The gas squirts out of the primary jets into the carburator when I goose the gas by disconnecting the control at the carb. One thing I noticed on the spark plugs before I put them back in I noticed every other one was a bit blackened and the other looked clean, like the intake manifold is on two levels, and one level is getting more backfires, or something. I'm going to try some more. Maybe it is flooded.
 
Bummer...I'd say back to basics....

So, when the distributor when in, #1 Piston was at TDC, on the compression stroke?

I seem to remember 'ok' numbers, for compression, but I think they were with the bad starter...

Other thing that comes to mind is the gasoline itself - how old is it? given the politics in that area of the country, I'm guessing it is E-10?
 
Yes, I verified the #1 piston on the compression stoke in various ways: by opening the distributer and seeing the rotor passing the #1 lead as the thumb is pushed out of the #1 plug hole, Also using the timing light on the #1 plug as the thumb is pushed out of the #1 plug hole,
The compression wass mostly 90 lbs and a couple at 70 and one at 65 pounds, but seems mute as the oil was not, and still may not be distributed throughout the engine, as it has never been running.
The gas was all new April of 2023, and had Marine Stabil put in at the proper rate, and yes, it is all 10% ethanol out here. It seems if starting fluid makes no difference that it is not the gas itself, but I have a can of new gas that I can put down the carb and see if it hits.
Okay, I just went out and poured and once or two down the gullet of the carb two times and got no hit whatsoever either time.
It seems like it may want to start sometimes when I get to twenty seconds, like it speeds up a bit, but then I stop, not wanting to burn out another starter. Should I risk going longer?
 
I wouldn't go more than 30 seconds at a time...with a.couple minutes to cool between attempts...

Iwud check a plug or two to make sure it's not flooding...
 
I went out and took off the #1 plug, and it was a bit wet. It had been sitting for about an hour. I adjusted the choke open more and put the throttle on full to maximize the amount of air in the fuel/air mixture and tried turning it over again and it popped a lot, but didn't start. I tried it another time for 30 seconds and got no pop or hit of any kind. I tried it one more time moving the distributer around back and forth about 10 degrees each way and still didn't get a hit or a pop.
I believe we are sure of the spark, so it is gas or timing (which should be close), or some vacuum leak, or...???
It is a new carburator and does have two idle mixture screws, one for the right side of the carb and one for the left.. I was thinking of screwing them in and counting the turns, as a baseline, and then screwing them back out to the same place, and then playing around with them one way or the other. Any other ideas?
 
for the gas, if it doesn't smell and look fresh, I'd say drain the carb and the pump and then use an outboard tank with fresh fuel in it...for troubleshooting purposes...be careful with the potential for fumes...

New carb - you can check the idle screw position...if the choke isn't right, that could be a major contributor...same for idle stop screw. Not knowing which flavor was used, can't say much more on that one...Plugs should not be 'wet', especially after sitting a while...and I'd check the carb to make sure it is not flooding...

who adjusted the valves when the engine was reassembled? Any idea how it was done?
 
I'm not sure I would know what a good glass of gas would look and smell like.
Maybe when I put the fresh gas into the carb, it was already flooded, and I made it worse. I would like to try it again the first time I try to start it again. If inconclusive, I could rig something up. If the gas is okay, I have to figure if it is too much or not enough gas. The primary jets in the new carb are bigger than the ones in the old Holly, that I still have and re-built, so my guess is that it is getting too much. I changed to this carb when I got a few hits on the Holly after pumping like crazy on the gas, thinking it wasn't getting enough, with the new larger intake manifold made for a four barrel.
The machine shop had the valves adjusted and covered up when I got the block back in my possesion. I don't know how it was done and I don't know what the right way is. Sometimes you just have to trust the professionals. I put on the water pump and all else in the front, the intake manifold and all else on the top, and the flywheel and everything else on the back. I worry a little about the intake manifold, having re-installed it once already.
So the last time I did three trys: The first it popped a lot, and the two times after that, not a peep - maybe it was already flooded??? Too much gas?
 
Primary jets being larger don't necessarily mean more fuel at idle...on the fuel quality, I usually use my vehicle's filler neck as a reference...as far as testing, I usually get 1/2 to a full pint and put it in the old push lawnmower .... if its old and degraded, the mower will tell you in short order...

Understand on the valve adjustment...just giving another item...if the rockers are too tight, the valves won't fully seat when the lifters fill and the compression will be down from its peak value.

i sure wouldn't continue pumping the throttle while trying to start the engine...
 
The gas test was a FAIL - it would not run my pressure washer. I have 20 gallons in the boat tank and have a 55 gallon drum with about 30 gallons of really old gas in it from the original tank clean-out, so I guess I'll have a full drum that I will have to take to some recycing center..
I do have a can of octane booster, if that would be any kind of substitute, maybe adding some good gas??
There are a few staions in LA that sell gas without ethanol, but it is $10 a gallon. Is it worth it?
Looking at it again, I believe I put on the valve covers believing they had adjusted whatever needed to be adjusted. We will handle the gas first.
 
I would NOT waste the octane booster trying to 'revive' the existing fuel in the tank....just get rid of it.

Hopefully, there won't be any water in it and new gasoline will be adequate.

Some people hate the E-10 and won't use it...as long as you prepare for it, it works...E-10 will tear up most 'old' fuel system parts so any replacements should be documented to handle e-10.

I think the faster was to run the engine would be to use an outboard tank connected to the fuel pump...don't forget to drain whatever is in the pump and the float bowl...

The valve adjustment may be ok...just threw it out there based on the no start symptom...
 
I am going to re-do the test, as I went out to finish pressure washing my truck with new gas, I saw that the choke was on. Not sure if I tested it with the choke on, and wouldn't want to go through all that work for no gain.
Almost all of my parts and gaskets are new, so should be rated for E10, as that is all we have around these parts. My 55 gallon tank is stainless steel.
 
Question: I am about to order the pretronix distributer, and it takes the canister type coil. I have a new 40,000 volt one that I bought for the old distributer, but it says it needs to have an external resistor. I took out my ballast resistor, and the pertronix distributer recomends not using one. Do I need to buy a new pertronix coil as well?
 
you need a 'matched system' when it comes to the ignition...If the distributor doesn't need a ballast resistor, then get a coil that doesn't need one as well...you could get the matching pertronix coil or another (12VDC) coil that doesn't need an external resistor...

you can use a coil that calls for a resistor but, without it, the coil will operate with more current than designed and will fail in due time...
 
I got the new distributer and coil in and wired, except for the sparkplug wires - the ones I had didn't fit as were female at the distributer, and the new one take male connections. I ordered some on Amazon and won't be in until next Friday.
 
If the old ones are the correct type and in good shape, you may want to hold on to them...you can get boots and terminal ends a lot cheaper than another wire set...
 
Holy Moley I got it started!!!!
I let it run mostly at idle for about half an hour. It seems to need quite a bit more advance than the 10 degrees. When I bring it down towards 10, it cuts out. It is idling at just around 900 rpm, so will have to adjust the idle on the carb/timing - supposed to be 5-600. It does pop a bit when I give it some gas, so will have to play around with the timing and carb so that it doesn't.
Any advise on break in, timing and carb adjustment? I was going to just let it run at around idle for several hours as I play around with it and do whatever I need to do to get it ready for sea trials. I will spend some time on it tomorrow.
Thank you for everything!
 
I went out and played around with it for another half hout and got the idle down and went all over wih the timing, from the bottom extreme at 10 to the top at around (an estimated) 25 degrees, and got it to not pop the first time I tryed it, but when I did it a second time, still got some popping. It looks like around 15-20 degrees is the best. I twisted in the idle screws on the carb about 1/4 turn and seemed about the same.
There are some other things, like the manual advance inside the distributer has different springs to adjust the advance. It came with the mid-range spring. Not sure if that should go higher or lower. It also has some kind of rpm limiters for the advance. It said they weren't required, so I didn't put any in.
I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow.
 
you really don't want to idle it around during your break in period...you really want the engine loaded (in gear, moving the boat) and you want to vary the RPM...whoever did the rebuild (machinist work) should have provided details...if not, you can find an owner's manual on line and they will have a very conservative break in description...I'd say the biggest thing is avoid WOT RPM for the first 5 hours and to vary the RPM every 15-30 minutes or so...The idea is to get the rings mated...

agreed you need to get the idle down as the drive likely wont tolerate shifting at that RPM...

as to the idle mixture adjustment - it won't matter at 900 RPM as you are into the transition circuit at that point (ie, the idle mixture screws aren't controlling the fuel flow at 900 RPM)...

You will need to check the max timing advance to make sure you do not grenade the engine (detonation)...I haven't seen a max value for a ford small block in a factory marine manual...my best guess is you don't want anything above 30 deg BTDC at MAX RPM...you should be able to find a timing curve for the distributor in the paperwork that came with it. If you dont have an 'advance style' timing light, get a timing tape and put it on the balancer (you'll need the OD to get the correct one)...or you can scribe a line on the balancer...depends upon your comfort level in the process...too much timing advance can kill any gasoline engine, especially in a boat as the load is much more than in an auto.
 
I will throttle between 1500 to 2500 and will vary the RPM while getting the timing squared away and make sure nothing is leaking. I did get the idle down to 5-600. I believe the balancer has markings to 20 degrees. I will use a silver sharpie to make them visable to my timing light and to determine the exact timing. I won't go over 20 degrees. I did use Lucas break-in addative in the oil. I will also note the oil pressure. I will then, maybe later in the week, take it to the marina, probably San Pedro, and putter around for a while outside the no wake zone inside the breakwater.
I did notice some blow-back from the valvecover vent and a bit of oil on the valve cover around it. It was a lot at first and then reduced greatly, and I didn't notice it again for a while, but saw it slightly venting, which may just be from the oil not having been distributed evenly throughout the engine at first, and the rings having not seated. Hopefully that will even out. Yes, I will resist going wide open throttle, although I really am anxoius to see what it will do.
 
There always seems to be a little pop when I give it gas no matter where I set the timing between 10 and 20, unless I gently give it gas. I can't decide where to set it, but am earing on the side of 10 degrees recommended, and it does operate well there. May need to try it under load. The little pop seems like too much gas, so maybe twist in the carb adjustments another quarter turn.
 
Neal Franson said:
......little pop seems like too much gas, so maybe twist in the carb adjustments another quarter turn....
Click to expand...
if you are speaking about the idle mixture screws - don't. I'd make sure the accelerator pump in the carb is working...

"pops" are typically due to lean conditions vs rich conditions....
 
I got the firing order correct - I know it by heart; 13726548. I'm not sure I how to test if the accellerator pump is working. It is a brand new carburator. Good to know that pops are typically due to lean conditions.
 
I took it down to the marina today and it started great and it would rev up out of gear, still poping if I rushed the gas; but under load, when I put it in gear, it would not go over 500 or 600 RPM, where it gave that familiar pop and died. I tried adjusting the timing each and every degree from 9 degrees through 20 degrees, and on the extremities it just died when shifting into gear, but in the middle, around 14 degrees, it would idle at 4-500, but as soon as I gave it gas, it would again immediately pop and die. Out of gear it would rev up as much as I let it, around 3000 RPM, but would pop when gave it gas too fast. I tried all the timing options and nothing worked. I ran out of things I could do a the marina, so took my toys home.
On the way home I was wondering if maybe the gas was on the edge. It had about 20 gallons in it, so I added some octane booster and added another 10 gallons of premium gas and Stabil marine, so it should be a friendlier mixture. I will try it later and see if it still gives the famiar pops when I give it gas. I spent my enegy winching the boat into its place.
Maybe you could list out the possilities of what may be wrong. I have some guesses.
I am still not sure how to check the accellerator pump, but the jets do squirt out gas nicely when I goose it - still may be something with the carb.
On the distributer, I don't know too much about timing curves and how they manifest.
I think it is likely that the valves need to be adjusted, my best guess. I looked at one YouTube video on how to adjust GT 40 heads and didn't really get it. There are more.
Any other possibilities?
 
Since you have gotten it running have you done a compression test with:
Engine warmed up
Throttle valve wide open
Ignition high tension lead grounded
All spark plugs removed
Do this first & report back
Based on those results you can plan further diagnostics
BTW when tested this way my old Chevy 4.3 V6 which has the original 1988 short block & got reman heads 7 years ago, tests from 160-170 psi. You should be at 150 psi or better.
If you get low cyls a valve may be hanging open & causing a pop back thru the intake.
A leak down test will give further information
Is the rebuild still under warrantee?
 
Lou's suggestion is a good start (though I don't feel a warm engine is preferred for a compression test) - a valve too tight is good either.

On the carb adjustments, the factory data is always a good start. the accelerator pump adjustments are limited - on most carbs, its volume and timing (how much and when it happens). should have had adjustment instructions with the new one.

The ignition timing needs to advance with RPM to enable the engine to make full power. the OEM curve is a good place to start. how did you wind up configuring the distributor ??

Bad (stale, old, decomposed, etc) gas can never be fixed either by dilution or a magic bottle...it needs to be removed. If that is suspected, the best test is to temporarily swap in an outboard tank as the source.
 
I will do the compression test and the leakdown test, as I have the equipment. I will also inspect the plugs.
The distributer came with the middle sized springs installed and I just left them in, as it seemed a logical place to start. I did not install any of the advance limiters, as it said they were not required and not knowing which one to use.
All I know on the carb is to twist the screws a quarter turn one way or the other and see if it helps. They are set right now, as it came from the factory. It has the smallest jets installed from the factory, which are larger than the old two barrel Holley, which I still have. It is my understanding the the timing should be addressed first.
 
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