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Rh rotation help !

Aaron.r.g

Aaron.r.g

New member
Hi guys, I am sorry for this long and confusing post, I am doing my head in atm.
I have a pair of counter rotating crusader 454xl tbi engines (gen 5) in my Trojan 1998 350express.
I took the engines out and sent them to an engine builder to strip down and rebuild both of them. New pistons, rings, con rods and bearings, machined heads and block, new timing gear , oil pumps, fresh water circulation pumps.
There was no problem with the LH rotation engine it started up and runs fine, but I don’t think the engine builder knew much about reverse rotation engines. It looks like He has thrown away the timing gears and fitted a timing chain set so now the cam is spinning in the wrong direction (cow)
I am also worried that he has fitted a lh rotation fresh water circulation pump and standard main seals.
My question is this.
Can I run this RH rotation engine in a LH direction by leaving the timing chain set as is , and changing starter motor. Then the cam would be spinning in the correct direction, I can reverse the rotation at the transmission (hurth he’s 630v).
Obviously the firing order would have to remain as if it was a RH rotation engine.
Am I missing anything by thinking that once the cam is spinning in the correct direction it doesn’t make much difference on the rotation of the crankshaft.
Any help and/or advice would be greatly appreciated.
 
your rebuilder just cost you a lot of cash
Most like can reverse the trans rotation by turning the oil pump around.
For the engine. you will have to pull it to fix a few things starting with the cam. Completely different cam to rev rotation.
Check to see if the builder installed the pistons con rods in the correct direction because they squirt oil up to the cam . Pistons need to be reversed to run a std rotation
Firing order set to std rotation
 
Bt Doctur said:
your rebuilder just cost you a lot of cash
Most like can reverse the trans rotation by turning the oil pump around.
For the engine. you will have to pull it to fix a few things starting with the cam. Completely different cam to rev rotation.
Check to see if the builder installed the pistons con rods in the correct direction because they squirt oil up to the cam . Pistons need to be reversed to run a std rotation
Firing order set to std rotation
Click to expand...
Hi mate, thank you for your response,
The pistons he has used can’t be reversed( see pics)
I was just thinking that if I Change the rotation of the engine back to lh rotation the cam would then be spinning in the correct direction as it was designed to. And the firing order would remain as it was designed for that cam. ??
 
I would say you need to have a chat with the engine builder and get him to come clean with the details of what he did (and the part numbers of what he used). if he built a LH engine (out of what was a RH engine) and you have the Hurth 630 gears, you probably just need the correct starter and the gear cable switched to give the opposite "throw" (those gears are full power reverse as noted)...
 
makomark said:
I would say you need to have a chat with the engine builder and get him to come clean with the details of what he did (and the part numbers of what he used). if he built a LH engine (out of what was a RH engine) and you have the Hurth 630 gears, you probably just need the correct starter and the gear cable switched to give the opposite "throw" (those gears are full power reverse as noted)...
Click to expand...
Thanks for your input. That’s what I was thinking, the only thing that is confusing me is. Am I able to use the rh rotation cam shaft ? By changing the starter motor the cam would now be spinning in the correct Direction, but the firing order would remain as the rh rotation engine was designed to ?
 
in my opinion, you are assuming a RH camshaft was installed. Every one that I have seen (factory built, in the last 50 years) uses the gear drive, not the chain. (that said, some variants exist, especially when the aftermarket world is considered.)

Until the details are made available, all we can do is speculate (based on your inputs) from there...if all of the details are presented, then the answers you get will be biased...
 
Bt Doctur has the right idea with changing from RH to LH.
The transmission cannot just be rotated in reverse now for forward, the trans will be damaged
 
makomark said:
in my opinion, you are assuming a RH camshaft was installed. Every one that I have seen (factory built, in the last 50 years) uses the gear drive, not the chain. (that said, some variants exist, especially when the aftermarket world is considered.)

Until the details are made available, all we can do is speculate (based on your inputs) from there...if all of the details are presented, then the answers you get will be biased...
Click to expand...
So he used the rh rotation camshaft but replaced the gear set with a timing chain. So the cam is now spinning in the wrong direction.
He said he has used rh main seals and universal flow water circulation pumps.
he said that The pistons and con rods that he used are perfectly symmetrical and can not be reversed. I guess I am trying to decide if I am better off changing the starter motor and spinning the motor oh or buying the timing gear set to get the cam to spin opposite direction to the crankshaft
 
If he used a RH camshaft with a set of timing gears, its not a standard RH camshaft (either Crusader, GM, or the normal aftermarket suppliers) because the LH timing sprocket is bolted to the camshaft and the RH gear is a press fit...Now, if there was a custom made cam, that's a different story...and that introduces a different set of problems...

As BT noted, the rebuilder did his own thing at your expense...given the non-standard parts, I'd say your expenses are likely to grow...:(
 
makomark said:
If he used a RH camshaft with a set of timing gears, its not a standard RH camshaft (either Crusader, GM, or the normal aftermarket suppliers) because the LH timing sprocket is bolted to the camshaft and the RH gear is a press fit...Now, if there was a custom made cam, that's a different story...and that introduces a different set of problems...

As BT noted, the rebuilder did his own thing at your expense...given the non-standard parts, I'd say your expenses are likely to grow...:(
Click to expand...

If I had to guess, he never had an RH engine, no press fit gear, and no timing gears.

My 1996 Trojan, Gen V engines have two std. rotation engines, and the CCW prop is done somewhere in the transmission or v-drive.
 
390Express said:
If I had to guess, he never had an RH engine, no press fit gear, and no timing gears.

My 1996 Trojan, Gen V engines have two std. rotation engines, and the CCW prop is done somewhere in the transmission or v-drive.
Click to expand...
Hi Nate, thanks for your reply That’s interesting, does your Trojan have birth v drives?
I bought my 1998 Trojan 350 express with 2 stuffed engines, So I never had it running. I removed both engines and sent them to the engine builder for rebuilds. I definitely have cw and ccw starter motors. And the props are an opposing set. The hurth hsw630 v1 v drives both have the same shifter set up with the shift cable and brackets identical on both engines.
I didn’t strip the engines down so I am not sure what was there prior to the rebuild.
The engine builder mainly does high performance car and boat engines and I’m not sure if he understands reverse rotation or remembers what he has done with my engines during the rebuild. Every time I question him he contradicts himself so I don’t think he actually remembers what he did.
 
makomark said:
When you push the drives into forward, do the shift levers on each gear move in the same way?
Click to expand...
I will check next time I’m on the boat. Just to make the story a little more confusing, There is the possibility that it is a standard rotation engine that had the wrong starter motor fitted to it. As I said, when I bought the boat it had 2 siezed engines in it, but the starboard engine had what looks like a brand new starter motor fitted to it. This is the starter motor that spins that engine in a reverse rotation. So there is a slight possibility that someone has fitted that starter motor when originally trying to get that engine running and has accidentally bought the wrong starter for that engine ?
 
Aaron.r.g said:
Hi Nate, thanks for your reply That’s interesting, does your Trojan have birth v drives?
I bought my 1998 Trojan 350 express with 2 stuffed engines, So I never had it running. I removed both engines and sent them to the engine builder for rebuilds. I definitely have cw and ccw starter motors. And the props are an opposing set. The hurth hsw630 v1 v drives both have the same shifter set up with the shift cable and brackets identical on both engines.
I didn’t strip the engines down so I am not sure what was there prior to the rebuild.
The engine builder mainly does high performance car and boat engines and I’m not sure if he understands reverse rotation or remembers what he has done with my engines during the rebuild. Every time I question him he contradicts himself so I don’t think he actually remembers what he did.
Click to expand...

Yes, my Trojan is a 1996, 390 Express, with 454 XLi, TBI injected, Gen V engines. Both engines turn std. LH rotation, but the port engine spins the port side prop counter clockwise. I'm not entirely sure where the reversing of the prop takes place (transmission or v-drive gearbox), but that is how my boat is setup.

It was my understanding that Trojan stopped using reverse rotation engines around 1993 ish, when Trojan was sold off to Carver.

Always ask for your old parts, if no other reason than to inspect them, and to ensure that the builder is installing new parts on your build. That would have saved you a ton of headache here. Do you still have your old cam, and is the cam out of the engine? You should be able to determine the firing order of the camshaft if it is out of the engine, or compare the two camshafts to see if their firing orders are different.
Is it possible to move the prop/driveshaft and see the direction of the input shaft on the transmission?
 
Aaron.r.g said:
I will check next time I’m on the boat. Just to make the story a little more confusing, There is the possibility that it is a standard rotation engine that had the wrong starter motor fitted to it. As I said, when I bought the boat it had 2 siezed engines in it, but the starboard engine had what looks like a brand new starter motor fitted to it. This is the starter motor that spins that engine in a reverse rotation. So there is a slight possibility that someone has fitted that starter motor when originally trying to get that engine running and has accidentally bought the wrong starter for that engine ?
Click to expand...
If one shifter "pulls" the gear end of the cable "IN" when going into Forward and the other "pushes" the cable out, I'd say things are configured for LH'd engines on both sides...and the starter motor may be the root of the problem...
 
390Express said:
Yes, my Trojan is a 1996, 390 Express, with 454 XLi, TBI injected, Gen V engines. Both engines turn std. LH rotation, but the port engine spins the port side prop counter clockwise. I'm not entirely sure where the reversing of the prop takes place (transmission or v-drive gearbox), but that is how my boat is setup.

It was my understanding that Trojan stopped using reverse rotation engines around 1993 ish, when Trojan was sold off to Carver.

Always ask for your old parts, if no other reason than to inspect them, and to ensure that the builder is installing new parts on your build. That would have saved you a ton of headache here. Do you still have your old cam, and is the cam out of the engine? You should be able to determine the firing order of the camshaft if it is out of the engine, or compare the two camshafts to see if their firing orders are different.
Is it possible to move the prop/driveshaft and see the direction of the input shaft on the transmission?
Click to expand...
Hi mate,
Your information has been priceless to me.
When I bought my boat with 2 x siezed engines the starboard engine had a new looking starter motor fitted (spinning the motor on a (RH) rotation (reverse rotation)
After your last message I had a thought so I dug up the phone number of the guy I bought the boat from almost 2 years ago and asked the silly question “ did you ever have the starboard engine running with that new starter motor installed “? He said “NO” he initially thought that the original starter motor was faulty and was the reason why his motor wasn’t turning over so he installed a new starter, only then to realise that the engine was actually siezed,
So I works out that he installed the incorrect starter motor that has lead me down the garden path and weeks of head aches and left me scratching my head.
So it is a standard rotation motor, I just went out on it and checked out the gearbox’s and the rotation is switched at the shift levers. When both levers are pushed forward one cable pushes the linkage at its transmission while the other one pulls the linkage at the transmission. So basically I have just ordered the correct starter motor and I need to put the front of the engibe back together . Fingers crossed that is the last of my troubles.
Thank you for your input, I really appreciate your help !

Thanks again
Aaron
 
Aaron.r.g said:
Hi mate,
Your information has been priceless to me.
When I bought my boat with 2 x siezed engines the starboard engine had a new looking starter motor fitted (spinning the motor on a (RH) rotation (reverse rotation)
After your last message I had a thought so I dug up the phone number of the guy I bought the boat from almost 2 years ago and asked the silly question “ did you ever have the starboard engine running with that new starter motor installed “? He said “NO” he initially thought that the original starter motor was faulty and was the reason why his motor wasn’t turning over so he installed a new starter, only then to realise that the engine was actually siezed,
So I works out that he installed the incorrect starter motor that has lead me down the garden path and weeks of head aches and left me scratching my head.
So it is a standard rotation motor, I just went out on it and checked out the gearbox’s and the rotation is switched at the shift levers. When both levers are pushed forward one cable pushes the linkage at its transmission while the other one pulls the linkage at the transmission. So basically I have just ordered the correct starter motor and I need to put the front of the engibe back together . Fingers crossed that is the last of my troubles.
Thank you for your input, I really appreciate your help !

Thanks again
Aaron
Click to expand...

You're welcome, glad you're making some progress!

Happy to help.

Cheers 🍻
 
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