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Here we go again. No spark on cylinder 1 on 1975 135hp Johnson

S

SaltyScot

Regular Contributor
135ETL75E

I bought a Jet-Ster speed boat a month or two ago and this motor was on the back in good running shape. I took it out four times and on the fifth time, I couldn't rev it above idle. During a compression test(which was fine) in low light conditions, I noticed coil 1 was glowing white thru a crack on the top of its body. Tested spark and found no spark on that cylinder 1. So I bought new coils for 1 and 3 since 3 had a slightly smaller crack. Still no spark on 1. After swapping coil wires around to rule them out, I thought maybe the bad coil took out the power pack. So I tried a used power pack. Still no spark on 1. So I thought maybe I should try another used PP. Still no spark on 1. I ohmed out the sensor coil leads and they look fine. 7.6ohms on 1 to 3 and on 2 to 4. All showed infinity when tested to ground. I polished the grounds up and don't know where to go from here. What is a neon test light? Is there a way around using it? I can't find much info on it anywhere.

I have fixed a half dozen of these mid 70s V4 with bad power packs on the cylinder 1 in the last few years just by replacing the PP. It's always cylinder 1 in my experience. But a PP solved everyone of them. I guess I was lucky that I never had to look further than that. No luck this year. Everything has gone bad for me fixing outboards. Should I just try a NEW PP this time? I just have to ask those that know far more than me before spending money on parts I don't need. Thanks.

Stephen
 
Sounds like you have access to some parts. My 1975 85hp would start and idle, then stall when applying power. Even though it checked out, the stator was bad. The same thing can happen to the timer base. With 50 year old electronics, the insulation on the windings can break down just enough to fail under load, but still show a good reading on an ohm meter.
 
Yes, I actually used to have multiple parts engines of similar V4s. But I cleaned out my garage last year and have nothing left now. Just an extra lower unit. I've been trying ebay lately. I've fixed a couple of old Mercs this year with rotted wiring by getting used stuff off ebay.

I guess I'll have to pull the flywheel and check out the wiring.
 
Is that supposed to be set to .020?

I tried moving the timing sensor 3 wire to the sensor 1 position on the PP and still get no spark on 1. Cylinder 3 might be running intermittent as well(when wired normally).

I also noticed that the tach needle is no longer jumping when I crank the key over. Could I be looking at a rectifier issue?
 
Well, I think I found it. I swapped the timer base wire pairs 1&3 with 2&4 on the timer base and the no/intermittent spark condition followed to 2 and 4. So I believe I need a new timer base(or air gap adjustment). I know this is pretty basic logic, but can someone please confirm this before I drop some coin?
 
So I put in another timer base and nothing has changed. I have the CDI printout for troubleshooting it. It says "Swap the timer base wire sets (swap the #1 & #3 pair with the #2 & #4 pair) and see if the no spark problem follows a timer base wire." I did that, and it DID follow. But it doesn't say what to do or where to look if it does. I assumed it would be a bad timer base, but there must be more to it than that.

I tested the brown to brown/yellow on the stator and got 594 ohms. Supposed to be 555-705. I tested the output voltage with it disconnected and got 303V. Supposed to be 150-400V. I then tested the output voltage with it connected and got ZIPPO. Again, should be 150-400V.

Does that indicate a bad stator or PP? Can that zero output voltage cause my no spark on 1 and 3, while 2 and 4 are still good?
 
Well, I ended up buying a Fluke and retested all my readings. The only ones that came up different were the brown to brown/yellow from the stator. It showed 303V connected this time. And disconnected was 270V.
 
I replaced the stator and it is still the same. I have now replaced the stator, timer base, rectifier, power pack(x2), and coils. I just went through the same with a 1995 60hp Rude that had no spark. Replaced everything and still had no spark.

What does it mean if you have spark on 2 and 4, but not 1 and 3. And then you swap the timer base leads between the two pairs and then you have no spark on 2 and 4? The troubleshooting guide says to do this, but it doesn't say what the result means. It looks like I'm going to be playing a lot of golf this winter, since I can't get a phucking motor to work.
 
Disconnect black/yellow stripe kill wire and see if the spark comes back. I have seen bad ignition switches 1/2 kill the ignition. ( not kill the entire system)
 
fitz73222 said:
Disconnect black/yellow stripe kill wire and see if the spark comes back. I have seen bad ignition switches 1/2 kill the ignition. ( not kill the entire system)
Click to expand...
Thanks, I appreciate your input. That was one of the first things I did try. I did try it again to no avail.
 
I just lost spark on the #4 cylinder now. It didn't correspond with any component replacement. I started with all 4 good. Then lost #1. Then lost #3. And finally lost #4. I swapped the timer base wires 2 and 4 and the spark went back to #4. Does that strike a chord with anyone? I'm still leaning toward a bad ground somewhere, but I can't find one that I've missed. I have already replaced the timer base with a used one that changed nothing.
 
How are you validating spark? Grounding the plug to the block or using an adjustable spark checker with the gap set a minimum of 3/8". If you are referring to neon spark checker earlier. It allowed you watch the engine firing while running to see the misses or dead fire has the engine was running. Back in those days, I believe we were using the Stevens CD-77 analyzer for most component checks.
 
How does this motor run once started ?------Note----If flywheel RPM is slow you will have weak / erratic spark.----You MUST verify that battery is good with a load test.----Take the starter apart for inspection and ohm test on armature.----Check battery cables.----No $$ need to be spent doing this.
 
I’m no pro, but here are my thoughts. The stator provides primary voltage for the power pack. I think it is either good or bad. When my stator went out, I had weak spark equally on all plugs. The timing base is the trigger. Since you changed it and the problem persisted, that indicates to me that that the timing base may be ok (assuming there are no shorts in the wiring and tight connections). The only component that has individual circuits for each plug is the power pack. So if you are losing spark on different plugs at different times, that indicates a power pack problem (to me at least). Now that you changed the stator and timing base, consider trying the old power packs and see if anything changes.

How old are these powerpacks?
 
fitz73222 said:
How are you validating spark? Grounding the plug to the block or using an adjustable spark checker with the gap set a minimum of 3/8". If you are referring to neon spark checker earlier. It allowed you watch the engine firing while running to see the misses or dead fire has the engine was running. Back in those days, I believe we were using the Stevens CD-77 analyzer for most component checks.
Click to expand...
I have the cheapo light up inline tester, as well as the adjustable gap type.
 
racerone said:
How does this motor run once started ?------Note----If flywheel RPM is slow you will have weak / erratic spark.----You MUST verify that battery is good with a load test.----Take the starter apart for inspection and ohm test on armature.----Check battery cables.----No $$ need to be spent doing this.
Click to expand...
It doesn't start. I just found that the starter solenoid has 13.5V going in and 9.5V coming out. So after I replace that I'll retest everything. I was under the very wrong assumption that that would cause a no spark on any cylinder.
 
Stripgear said:
I’m no pro, but here are my thoughts. The stator provides primary voltage for the power pack. I think it is either good or bad. When my stator went out, I had weak spark equally on all plugs. The timing base is the trigger. Since you changed it and the problem persisted, that indicates to me that that the timing base may be ok (assuming there are no shorts in the wiring and tight connections). The only component that has individual circuits for each plug is the power pack. So if you are losing spark on different plugs at different times, that indicates a power pack problem (to me at least). Now that you changed the stator and timing base, consider trying the old power packs and see if anything changes.

How old are these powerpacks?
Click to expand...
I did try swapping in two different PPs without a change. My timer base values are definitely not correct, but once I replace the starter solenoid, that could very well change.
 
Well, I put in the new starter solenoid. I already had one coming because one post had stripped threads. Put it in and still 8.5V coming out. I pulled the starter and cleaned it all out and refreshed the contacts. The brushes still had plenty of meat. Now its coming out at 9V. So a little improvement there. So I ordered another starter.
 
So a new starter later, and the same thing is happening. 8.5V going to the starter. I load tested the battery with my multimeter and it drops as low as low as 10.7V as I crank it. What is a normal reading?
 
I noticed that when I bypass my battery cut-off switch, the voltage to the starter goes up to 9.5V. But still not enough to generate spark on 1 and 3.
 
And I just took the battery to Autozone and it load-tested fine.

How is the starter grounded? If all surfaces of the starter are painted, how can it ground through the bolts?
 
Your engine does not need a 12 volt battery to run. It needs a 12 volt battery to develop 300 rpm cranking speed to light off the CDI ignition, all voltage is generated through the magneto. The engine will run perfectly with the battery cables disconnected. Wrong rabbit hole.
 
fitz73222 said:
Your engine does not need a 12 volt battery to run. It needs a 12 volt battery to develop 300 rpm cranking speed to light off the CDI ignition, all voltage is generated through the magneto. The engine will run perfectly with the battery cables disconnected. Wrong rabbit hole.
Click to expand...
I put my cheapo digital tach on it while cranking and I'm getting 290-300rpm. It's noticeably faster than before. So I decided to put my original stator and timer base back on it and now I have spark on 2, 3, and 4. Where the recently purchased used stator and timer base were giving me just 2 and 4. So now I'm back to where I started with just #1 down.
 
It does sound like you are chasing a ground. Is there any grease in this assembly where the timer base is mounted? Any connections to the block, any insulating material at any connections? Any anomalies in the flywheel where magnets are cross talking or some other weird corona path? It does seem that at the 30,000 ft view, when you are moving or replacing parts around, you are moving the failure mode, it doesn't go away, but it does move...
 
We have an 85hp (same year) on a boat club work pontoon. Similar issues when engine is cold. Both V4, basically same engines.

Remove all spark plugs, without compresion it will crank faster. Then check for spark again. Ours will have spark on all 4 this way. I've cleaned starter internals, electrical connections & jumpered with a 2nd good battery all no help. If you still have no spark on #1, swap leads from CDI to coils & see if problem follows. If it follows, CDI is bad. If problem stays with #1, coil is bad or has a bad ground. If you have spark on all 4 simply by testing with the plugs out, I'd guess the cylinder that fires immediately prior is causing extra drag & cranking speed slows & surges. High compression due carbon build up?

I'm not recommending you do the the following but:
Since I'm the only yahoo operating the boat club boat, I put 24v directly to the starter (as in after the solenoid so it's isolated from everything else) with key switch in ON position (NOT CRANK) & it spins fast, hot spark & starts. After that, it will be OK all day & sometimes even several days later. I guess with recent oil in bearings & rings it just spins fast enough to create spark.
 
Droid said:
We have an 85hp (same year) on a boat club work pontoon. Similar issues when engine is cold. Both V4, basically same engines.

Remove all spark plugs, without compresion it will crank faster. Then check for spark again. Ours will have spark on all 4 this way. I've cleaned starter internals, electrical connections & jumpered with a 2nd good battery all no help. If you still have no spark on #1, swap leads from CDI to coils & see if problem follows. If it follows, CDI is bad. If problem stays with #1, coil is bad or has a bad ground. If you have spark on all 4 simply by testing with the plugs out, I'd guess the cylinder that fires immediately prior is causing extra drag & cranking speed slows & surges. High compression due carbon build up?

I'm not recommending you do the the following but:
Since I'm the only yahoo operating the boat club boat, I put 24v directly to the starter (as in after the solenoid so it's isolated from everything else) with key switch in ON position (NOT CRANK) & it spins fast, hot spark & starts. After that, it will be OK all day & sometimes even several days later. I guess with recent oil in bearings & rings it just spins fast enough to create spark.
Click to expand...
Thanks. I think we're getting somewhere. I pulled the plugs and it cranked at 600rpm with the new starter. That produced good spark on #1. So I cleaned up the mount points on my OEM starter and block(NOT painted like I thought:unsure:) and reinstalled that one and it hit 700rpm. So I put the plugs back in and it cranks at 450rpm. But still no spark on #1. So there must still be a bad component? Awhile back, when I had no spark on 1 and 3, I swapped the 1/3 trigger pair with the 2/4 pair and the fault moved with them over to 2 and 4. Wouldn't that indicate a bad timer base? Or the sensor in the timer base(like Racer stated awhile back) out of adjustment?
 
fitz73222 said:
It does sound like you are chasing a ground. Is there any grease in this assembly where the timer base is mounted? Any connections to the block, any insulating material at any connections? Any anomalies in the flywheel where magnets are cross talking or some other weird corona path? It does seem that at the 30,000 ft view, when you are moving or replacing parts around, you are moving the failure mode, it doesn't go away, but it does move...
Click to expand...
I didn't find fault with any of the above. No grease on the base. Flywheel looks fine inside. I did clean up the ground points on the starter, which helped a bit.
 
SaltyScot said:
Awhile back, when I had no spark on 1 and 3, I swapped the 1/3 trigger pair with the 2/4 pair and the fault moved with them over to 2 and 4. Wouldn't that indicate a bad timer base? Or the sensor in the timer base(like Racer stated awhile back) out of adjustment?
Click to expand...
The trigger is a sealed assembly. So I assume "swapped the 1/3 trigger pair with the 2/4 pair" means you swapped the leads.

To be honest, its 3 degrees out & I'm not going outside to grab a manual. I am not aware of any gap adjustment but Racer has more experience than I do.

You have spark on 3 at cranking speed now & 4 with the plugs removed. Put it in the water & try it. One cylinder fires & it will speed up, probably run OK forever.
 
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