Seized VP 5.0GL - Options/Insights

[Relentless85]

Hello, I am new to boating and boat engines. However, I am mechanically inclined when it comes to vehicle engines. My family and I are looking into purchasing a boat and what I describe below is happening.

My friend has a 2001 Glastron GX 205 with the Volvo Penta 5.0 GL engine. The hour meter showed 182 hours. My friend took the boat out on the lake and drove it around for a few hours. They turned the engine off and sat for a bit. When they tried to restart the engine, it would not turn over. Said sounded like the belts would squeal. My friend was told the engine sized. I talked to the mechanic who told my friend this. The mechanic told me he tried standing on the prop to get the engine to manually turn over and it would not. The mechanic said he checked the starter and said it was ok. The mechanic pulled the spark plugs and ran a scope down and he said he saw some corrosion inside.

I went to look at the engine and I pulled the oil cap and saw chocolate milk around the cap. I pulled the dipstick and there was less chocolate milk but the oil was more “runny” than usual. I didn’t try to turn the engine over with the starter because the mechanic didn’t put the spark plugs back in and disconnected the power to the starter.

The mechanic said that somehow the engine ingested water and hydro locked the engine. He gave my friend the option of replacing with a used engine or replacing with a new block.

My friend is offering to sell the boat to me. I have been looking at new blocks with heads.

The mechanic said he could replace the engine with a new block from Jasper engines for around 12k.

I have heard and read horror stories about Jasper engines in the automotive world. What are good other places that I can personally buy a block from? I have seen Michigan motors and S&J engines. Does anyone have good experiences with these places? I am looking into doing the work myself.

Any pros or cons for replacing an engine in this old of a boat? The interior is in good condition and the boat was in a storage unit when not in use.

 

[bondo]

Hello, I am new to boating and boat engines. However, I am mechanically inclined when it comes to vehicle engines. My family and I are looking into purchasing a boat and what I describe below is happening.

My friend has a 2001 Glastron GX 205 with the Volvo Penta 5.0 GL engine. The hour meter showed 182 hours. My friend took the boat out on the lake and drove it around for a few hours. They turned the engine off and sat for a bit. When they tried to restart the engine, it would not turn over. Said sounded like the belts would squeal. My friend was told the engine sized. I talked to the mechanic who told my friend this. The mechanic told me he tried standing on the prop to get the engine to manually turn over and it would not. The mechanic said he checked the starter and said it was ok. The mechanic pulled the spark plugs and ran a scope down and he said he saw some corrosion inside.

I went to look at the engine and I pulled the oil cap and saw chocolate milk around the cap. (sounds like condensation)I pulled the dipstick and there was less chocolate milk but the oil was more “runny” than usual. I didn’t try to turn the engine over with the starter because the mechanic didn’t put the spark plugs back in and disconnected the power to the starter. ( hook the starter back up, 'n see whether it rolls over, with the plugs out)

The mechanic said that somehow the engine ingested water and hydro locked the engine.( it should have turned over, 'n blew the water out)
He gave my friend the option of replacing with a used engine or replacing with a new block.

My friend is offering to sell the boat to me. I have been looking at new blocks with heads.

The mechanic said he could replace the engine with a new block from Jasper engines for around 12k.

I have heard and read horror stories about Jasper engines in the automotive world. What are good other places that I can personally buy a block from? I have seen Michigan motors and S&J engines. Does anyone have good experiences with these places? I am looking into doing the work myself.

Any pros or cons for replacing an engine in this old of a boat? The interior is in good condition and the boat was in a storage unit when not in use.

Ayuh,...... Will this friend let you diagnose the problem, before buying it,..??
If so, pull the drive 1st, to be sure it's the motor, 'n not the drive,....
Standing on the prop, is Not a test,....
See where I bolded yer quote above, 'n start there, Before you spend any money,.....

 

[louc]

Is this boat in freshwater or salt water? If in freshwater you can often rehab an engine that suffered water ingestion all depending on the cause. In salt water you also can but your actions must be immediate.
Also even if the boat is structurally fine from being stored inside you still have two major components that can have troubles and cost $$$ to put right:
The outdrive
The transom mount including the power steering system .

 

[Droid]

I don't believe you could get $12,000 for this boat/motor/trailer combination if the boat was in mint condition. At least not in WI heading into fall.

*Has your friend owned it since new or just recently?
*Fresh or salt water use?
*Long time good friend or just an acquaintance?
*You've been out on this boat in the past & it ran good/you liked it?
*Is it otherwise spotless inside & out? In other words, a reputable dealer could be proud to put it in his showroom?

 

[Relentless85]

I don't believe you could get $12,000 for this boat/motor/trailer combination if the boat was in mint condition. At least not in WI heading into fall.

*Has your friend owned it since new or just recently?
*Fresh or salt water use?
*Long time good friend or just an acquaintance?
*You've been out on this boat in the past & it ran good/you liked it?
*Is it otherwise spotless inside & out? In other words, a reputable dealer could be proud to put it in his showroom?

My friends parents had owned it since the boat was new in 2001. The parents took good care of it. Then when it was passed down to my friend, it was taken care of, serviced and stored in a garage when not in use.

The boat has always been a freshwater boat. I have been in the boat several times. Each time I was in the boat it ran fine.

It’s a 2001 so there is some wear to be expected and it shows for a 25 year old boat. However, the seats are not stained or torn, there aren’t any cracks that I can see on the front, sides, underside or the rear where the lower unit is. All the gauges seem to work. The engine ran smooth when it was running. No abnormal vibrations. The hour meter said 182 hours. It could use some cleaning to be up to my standards.

The thinking is that since I have some knowledge of the boats history and know the boat hasn’t been completely trashed by owner, that it might be a better option to buy it and put a motor in it since we know where the boat came from and how it was treated. Rather than spend money on a boat that was “taken care of” from a stranger and then have potential issues with a boat purchased from a person we don’t know and potentially spend even more money to fix the boat from a stranger.

I agree that the boat is not probably worth 12k but if I were to do the work myself, I think I would come in under the 12k that the mechanic said he would charge. I’m finding 5.0 VP blocks for $4500-$5500 from various different websites. Just don’t know how reputable those engine builders/blocks are. I know for sure that I would not go with a Jasper marine engine.

 

[Droid]

You sound familiar with the boat. So if you liked it when it ran good, then if you can buy it right & have it running good at maybe $8000 total then you'll probably be OK.

Some thoughts:
*Did it fill with water 1st time out this season or not until several outings? If it took several outings then it's probably not a cracked block or manifold.
*Fresh water only, exhaust so manifolds are probably OK as in not rusted out. Risers/elbows & gaskets would be more likely bad.
*If engine was shut off or died for some reason while at a higher RPM it can roll backwards & suck water in.
*Was the boat beached, nose high, transom low then people accumulate on the rear deck area submerging it even deeper? One wake from a passing boat can swamp the exhaust.
*How long has it been sitting with water in it? Has the oil been changed & ran again? Expect 3 oil/filter changes before oil stays clean. If it is bad then trying to run it & it blows up is no loss.

 

[Relentless85]

You sound familiar with the boat. So if you liked it when it ran good, then if you can buy it right & have it running good at maybe $8000 total then you'll probably be OK.

Some thoughts:
*Did it fill with water 1st time out this season or not until several outings? If it took several outings then it's probably not a cracked block or manifold.
*Fresh water only, exhaust so manifolds are probably OK as in not rusted out. Risers/elbows & gaskets would be more likely bad.
*If engine was shut off or died for some reason while at a higher RPM it can roll backwards & suck water in.
*Was the boat beached, nose high, transom low then people accumulate on the rear deck area submerging it even deeper? One wake from a passing boat can swamp the exhaust.
*How long has it been sitting with water in it? Has the oil been changed & ran again? Expect 3 oil/filter changes before oil stays clean. If it is bad then trying to run it & it blows up is no loss.

I was out on the boat earlier this season. We were out for a full day on the water pulling tubes and trying to ski. It ran fine then. I know they have had the boat out 2-3 times after I was on it. So if water was ingested, I believe it was either immediately or possibly an accumulation of each outing.

I briefly looked at the risers and manifolds, I didn’t see any rust marks on them or see any cracks immediately visible to the eye. Rubber elbows looked healthy.

My friend said they were driving it and cruising around the lake for a bit. Sounds like they were cruising for at least 30 minutes to 1 hour. They stopped to rest and get the tube ready. They tried to restart the engine and it would not turn over. The more they kept trying to start it they eventually started to hear a squeal sound.

They were towed back to the dock. They put the boat on the trailer and took the boat to a local mechanic around the lake. That mechanic tested the starter, pulled some of the plugs and sprayed WD-40 in the wells and said he tried standing on the propeller to try making the engine turn over manually. The lake mechanic said the starter was good and he was unable to get the engine to turn over by standing on the propeller.

My friend then took it back home to the boat mechanic that had worked on the boat previously. The local mechanic pulled plugs, ran a scope and said he found corrosion in side the engine. The local mechanic also said he tried standing on the propeller to manually turn the engine over and could not get it to turn over.

I went to look at it briefly. I pulled the dipstick. If I remember correctly l, I didn’t find chocolate milk on the dipstick. I did find some milk chocolate when I removed the oil fil cap. However it was not caked on or dried on the top inside of the lid. It was around the threads on the cap. I think I stuck my finger into the fill hole and came out with chocolate milk.

I don’t believe my friend would beach the boat. They try to be very careful with the boat and are always monitoring the depth gauge….at least when I am on the boat with them, that’s what I have experienced.

So I guess it’s hard to tell how much water might be in the engine.

I am pretty sure the oil hasn’t been changed and the engine hasn’t been ran since the local mechanic looked at it about 2-3 weeks ago.

Right now most of the spark plugs are not in it. The plug wires have been disconnected and the main power has been disconnected.


In theory, if the boat is put into gear, spark plugs removed and I were to try spinning the propeller, wouldn’t the engine turn manually (if there was not something internally wrong with the out drive or the engine is truly seized) Or am I not understanding?

 

[Droid]

It seems hard to believe it went from running to seized after a brief stop. Removing the spark plugs should have let any hydraulic lock from water in the cylinders escape.

I've seen engines run with several gallons of watered down oil until it was essentially full & coming out the breather cap. Obviously not good. But some chocolate on the oil cap threads sounds like condensation and a cold running engine.
Standing on the prop is like 125 lb/ft of torque with a torque wrench. Think about it a minute..... Prop is max 16" diameter, so 200 lb man at 8" out from the prop shaft isn't much force. On a small outboard, yes you can probably rotate the motor but on a 5.7L? I don't think so.
Each of these mechanics have failed to pull the drive off and verify the drive isn't seized. That is step 1 to determine where the failure is.

 

[louc]

And if there was evidence of water in the cyls, they should have sprayed a rust dissolver in each cylinder and in addition some fogging oil, let it soak in for a few days and then try to crank it over again. I had salt water in my engine (front 2 cyls, blown head gasket), when I discovered it, the water was probably in it for at most a week, maybe less, I drained all the water out of the manifolds and block, and did what I explained above, then pulled the boat out of the water and got it up and running again. This enabled me to save the short block, the heads after I had them checked at a machine shop were cracked and cooling passages had a lot of corrosion from salt water use. So I replaced the cyl heads with reman units, Fel Pro head gaskets and ARP cyl head bolts. The thing that took the longest was cleaning off the block deck surface and every one of the cyl head bolt holes, they get crud in them from raw water cooling, that step along took most of a day. The rest of it was just keeping the parts clean and organized. I did this 9 years ago the engine is still in good shape now.

Also replaced the exhaust system at the same time, rebuilt the old Quadrajet carb too

 

[Relentless85]

I was able to bring the boat back to my house today so I could look over it more. Here is what I did and found along with some pictures.

Starter was off and all wires to starter were disconnected. Positive cable to battery was disconnected. All spark plugs had been removed from the block.

I reconnected the starter and the cables to the starter. I left the spark plugs out of the engine. The engine turns over with the spark plugs removed and in neutral gear. The engine sounded consistent, all the accessory belts were moving and I could see fluid coming from the left side spark plug holes. Not much fluid coming from the right side spark plug holes. Did not sound like anything was bent or seized.

Here is a short video of the engine turning over with the starter:

VP 5.0GL turning engine over with starter w/o spark plugs

I ran a bore scope in the left side spark plug holes. I did find fluid on the cylinder walls and some pooled up on top of the cylinders.

I ran a bore scope in the right side spark plug holes. I didn't find much fluid on the right side.

I pulled the engine oil dipstick, oil looked normal. I did not find chocolate milk on the dipstick.

Engine oil fill cap had some chocolate milk on the threads but not caked on to the inside of the lid.

I noticed while cranking the engine, there was a water puddling up under the crank pulley near the raw water pump.

Risers on both sides look good to me. I didn't find any rust marks or and bubbling of the paint on the risers. The rubber looks good on the backside of the risers.

I lowered the outdrive, pulled the dipstick on the upper unit, there was very little to no gear oil on the dipstick.

Continued below due to 10 picture attachment limit...

 

[Relentless85]

I removed the drain plug on the bottom of the outdrive and let some fluid out. It was grey in color. I didn't let much out because I didn't have any to put back in.

When I moved the throttle/shifter in to the forward position, I could spin the prop clockwise very easily. When I tried to spin the prop counterclockwise I had a difficult time. Seemed like I had to rock it back and forth to get it to turn. But I was able to get the prop to turn by rocking it back and forth going from clockwise to counterclockwise.

Video of manually turning prop with shift/throttle level in forward position

When I moved the throttle/shifter in to the neutral position, the prop would spin freely clockwise and counterclockwise.

When I moved the thottle/shifter into the reverse position, I was unable turn the prop clockwise. It did not budge going clockwise. I was able to turn the prop easily going counterclockwise.

Video of manually turning prop with shift/throttle lever in reverse position

If I put the throttle/shifter in forward position, the engine would not turn over. Same if I put the throttle/shifter in the reverse position, the engine would not turn over.

The trim seemed to work properly. I was able to raise and lower the outdrive several times.

I did not remove the outdrive and I did not put new spark plugs in the engine to see if it would run.

Spark plugs that were removed from the engine by the mechanic:

Thoughts? I don't believe the engine is seized since I was able to turn the engine over using the starter with the spark plugs out? Could the engine be salvaged if the fluid was removed, new spark plugs installed and several oil changes?

Does any of this info/troubleshooting point towards the outdrive being the issue?

Additional pics of the outdrive:

 

[Droid]

Question:
You put drive in gear & engine would not turn over.....
Are you saying starter tried to crank it but it appeared seized or that nothing happened? Because, the neutral safety switch should disable the starter. Nothing should happen unless you bypassed the neutral safety switch. If you bypassed the neutral safety switch & it appeared seized, pull the drive off. I'm not a VP guy, but I assume the water pump is belt drive on front of engine vs in the lower unit. Regardless, improvise some adapters & get water to the engine. Try to run it with drive off. If it runs, fully warm it & do a oil/filter change. Get the moisture out.

It appears to me that the engine took on some water thru the exhaust while sitting parked/swimming/beached as I mentioned before. Primarily left cyl bank.
That engine & engine bay look clean, I don't see rust/grease/DIYer evidence.
Gear oil is low & looks sort of metallic to me. I believe VP takes a specific oil. I know for a fact the 94 thru 98 OMC/VP joint venture drives did. Do some homework & verify the correct oil is used in the future. Don't take some guy's "oh you can use Mercruiser oil" as the gospel.

 

[louc]

I don’t think the engine is seized but there must be a leaky seal on the outdrive, the gear oil looks milky. Could be a bad propshaft seal or even leaky drain plug gaskets. I would try to do a compression test but it would be best to put in a fresh set of spark plugs and get it running first. On those Volvo exhaust elbows there is a plug at the very top for a temp sensor (optional) you can remove this and snake an endoscope camera down inside & then you can tell if the gasket between the elbows & the manifolds is leaking internally. If so it’s an easy repair. Main thing it get it running and change the oil several times.

 

[bondo]

Ayuh,..... What sorta "Fluid" was in the cylinders,..??..??

I would pull the drive so it can be pressure tested to find the leak,....
Then I would put the sparkplugs back in it, 'n light it off, 'n see how it runs,....

 

[Relentless85]

Question:
You put drive in gear & engine would not turn over.....
Are you saying starter tried to crank it but it appeared seized or that nothing happened? Because, the neutral safety switch should disable the starter. Nothing should happen unless you bypassed the neutral safety switch. If you bypassed the neutral safety switch & it appeared seized, pull the drive off. I'm not a VP guy, but I assume the water pump is belt drive on front of engine vs in the lower unit. Regardless, improvise some adapters & get water to the engine. Try to run it with drive off. If it runs, fully warm it & do a oil/filter change. Get the moisture out.

It appears to me that the engine took on some water thru the exhaust while sitting parked/swimming/beached as I mentioned before. Primarily left cyl bank.
That engine & engine bay look clean, I don't see rust/grease/DIYer evidence.
Gear oil is low & looks sort of metallic to me. I believe VP takes a specific oil. I know for a fact the 94 thru 98 OMC/VP joint venture drives did. Do some homework & verify the correct oil is used in the future. Don't take some guy's "oh you can use Mercruiser oil" as the gospel.

I did not disable any safety switches. I simply re-installed the starter, connected all the wires to the starter. I put the throttle lever in the middle or what I would consider neutral (straight up and down) then I turned the key. The starter activated and turned the engine over.

When I pushed the throttle lever all the way forward, the engine did not turn over. I heard clicking I think when the key was turned but the starter definitely did not turn the engine over when the throttle lever was pushed all the way forward and backwards.

The gear oil is very low. Almost didn’t register on the dipstick at the stop. Hard for me to tell if water is in the small amount of gear oil that I drained out. I thought it looked kind of metallic also.

I did not find a port on the out drive to connect a water hose to. I believe the water pump is mounted to the crank pulley on the front of the engine.

How would I be able to figure out if the out drive is locked up? Removing the out drive off the boat completely?

 

[Relentless85]

Ayuh,..... What sorta "Fluid" was in the cylinders,..??..??

I would pull the drive so it can be pressure tested to find the leak,....
Then I would put the sparkplugs back in it, 'n light it off, 'n see how it runs,....

When the engine was turning over via the starter, it looked like a combo of brown water with some oil or WD-40 mixed in with it.

What is the best way to get most of the water out of the engine?

If I remove the outdrive myself, would I be able to pressure test the out drive myself ?

Here is a picture of what the left side of the engine blew out of the spark plug holes when I was turning it over with the starter:

Here is a pic of the outdrive with the cover off: